Fisher Posted March 17, 2013 Report Share Posted March 17, 2013 so it turns out that my guppy didnt die of natural causes. she was sucked into my filter...boo. shes been in there for a week tho, so that may explain a part of my ammonia. Will have to see later on if thats the case. update. Tank is NH3/4 0ppm as of today. will switch to w/c every other day with continued daily testing for the next week. Found more runners off my pygmy swords today as well. Not that they are appearing daily, just noticing more. Feeling good about this tank. If things continue this way for the next month or so, considering a dry start npt to experiment with next So, you have a cycled tank, a decaying guppy, PCS runners and a quelled anxiety inside of 3wks? Now that's commendable! A fun thread to read on a sunny Sunday aft! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbarr Posted March 18, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 18, 2013 (edited) Except that I didnt even wait a month before starting my dsm npt lol. Couldnt help it. My HM wasnt really doing much in my 60 gal so I got antsy. My HM is already starting to perk up in there. I found a few smaller leaves poking out of my sub as well, indicating that things are rooting in and spreading out. Start date was the 13th of this month. The goal with this tank is to avoid using the sand cap over the dirt/kitty litter mix sub. I realise that this is something that folks will have a problem with, but if I get a densely planted carpet, Ill end up leaving it alone anyway and so I wont have to worry about a mess from moving things around. Im hoping to get away with only 3 types of plants. HM, PCS, and moneywort. A small bushy section of PCS in the back with a few moneywort stems in the opposite corner. I have a few larger stones in there. Im hoping to get things balanced out at the beginning with floating plants. This time I also intend to cycle the tank without fish too so that I can avoid doing w/cs everyday. It might end up happening anyway, but Ill wait and see what happens this time. Being a 5 gallon dsm, at least the w/cs should be easy and fast. Edited March 18, 2013 by jamesbarr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisher Posted March 19, 2013 Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 (edited) Except that I didnt even wait a month before starting my dsm npt lol. Couldnt help it. My HM wasnt really doing much in my 60 gal so I got antsy. That's just not like you James. The goal with this tank is to avoid using the sand cap over the dirt/kitty litter mix sub. I realise that this is something that folks will have a problem with, According to the Baensch Advanced Aquarium Atlas Vol 2 (2nd ed.): "Kitty litter and aquariums go together just like Dalmore 15yr and hot tubs." Says right here 1st full paragraph on page 37! Sometimes nay-sayers are just less bold. You're having fun with the paradigm, and isn't that the point after all? Just remember, there's lots of kittys in the world that don't have litter to © r@ p in.; don't (ahem) waste it. Edited March 19, 2013 by Fisher Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbarr Posted March 19, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 lol dont worry, if it goes south ill compost the works and grow tomatoes in it! Dalmore 15yr eh? Now that sounds like nice addition to all of this mess Maybe if I sat looking at my tanks drinking scotch more often, I wouldnt get so antsy :rofl: Then again...... I did a lot of reading online before adding the kitty litter. As it turns out, there is a whole bunch of folks that use it in their dirted tanks. Theres even been analysis on it to find out what kind of nutrients are available from it. The reason that I went for it and did the experiment was because Im sure that my plants have an iron deficiency and kitty litter is high in Fe. Ill have to wait and see if it makes a difference here. All this experimenting makes me feel like a biologist. Monitoring progress, documenting it here for future reference. One day Ill look back over the posts here and probably be onto a whole new thing. But you are certainly right, this is what makes aquaria so much fun to me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisher Posted March 19, 2013 Report Share Posted March 19, 2013 lol dont worry, if it goes south ill compost the works and grow tomatoes in it! think of the kitties... Dalmore 15yr eh? Now that sounds like nice addition to all of this mess Maybe if I sat looking at my tanks drinking scotch more often, I wouldnt get so antsy :rofl: Then again...... yah! then again :drunk: my thoughts exactly. who needs a hot tub? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbarr Posted March 21, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2013 (edited) Day 23 Still sitting at zero readings. Changing to weekly w/c with continued testing daily. Due to the length of time with 0 readings I dubbed this tank safe for more fish as of 2 days ago. Added 1 albino cory, 6 Zebra Danios, 3 wc minnows. There was a platy in there from the beginning. I like to keep my tanks close to 2G per fish. This rule has worked for me for quite some time so I will try it here and see what happens. I only keep small fish tho. I should also bring up that my substrate cross section is all wacky in front because I was poking it periodically in the beginning to help prevent my sub from going anaerobic. This was suggested to me by a guy on another forum who does walstads. He was saying that since he has started doing this in the beginning stages of the tank, he hasnt had one go anaerobic on him at all. I thought the advice was sound. Edited March 21, 2013 by jamesbarr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbarr Posted March 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 Front view Side view Day 28. Just about a month in. Added more fish 5 days ago. Anticipated spike didnt occur. Things are looking really good imo. Ive decided that the HM that I was so proud of was a better addition to my dsm so Im slowly removing it to allow for more pcs growth. They have really been filling in the left side of the tank. Fish appear really happy in there. Really happy I dove in and tried this out. Its hard to see, but one of the plants I am the most excited about is a lotus. In the side view picture you can see it a little bit on the bottom left of the pic. It was pretty tiny when it was added to the tank but its grown 4 leaves and they have reached the size of one of those chocolate turtles (mmm, i love turtles ) I think it looks awesome and cant wait for it to grow in more. Anyone know if there are any ill effects of letting it go to flower? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbarr Posted March 26, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 26, 2013 On a side note. This is my dsm Day 9. Started on the 13th of March Long way to go yet but so far so good Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbarr Posted April 3, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2013 (edited) Walstad update. Day 37. My tiger lotus is doing awesome. At the moment I am slowly thinning out the HM, I decided that I didnt really like them in there. I think they look too different from the rest of the plants. One of these things is not like the other Its going into my 30 to float around now that Ive transplanted enough into my dsm. I also filled my NPT DSM as well. Everything grew in as densely as I wanted in only a couple weeks. Today is day 21 from start, and day 3 after filling. Im starting it sans poisson. That way I can do fewer w/c. At the moment Ill be doing daily w/c until the loose soil from transplanting is gone. Contrary to typical npt dsm I am using diy co2 to aid in the transition from dry to wet. I want to eliminate as much die back as I can. So this tank will be transitioned slowly into a true npt later on. Once the nitrifying bacteria in the soil gets moving, they will product the co2 required by my plants. I intend to stock this tank down the road with a delta or half moon betta and some cherry shrimp. BTW the mass of gross looking stuff on the rock to the right is java moss, it just really likes to hold on to crude that floats by. Anyone know if that stuff will continue to grow on the rock and spread out, or will it just grow upwards now? Edited April 4, 2013 by jamesbarr Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisher Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 Im starting it sans poisson. Once the nitrifying bacteria in the soil gets moving, they will product the co2 required by my plants. Ok. So the plants deal with the NH3, NO2- and NO3− and the soil bacteria eats N and burps CO2? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbarr Posted April 4, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 Thats what I understand. So Im only supplementing my co2 until I begin to see bubbles rising out of my substrate and they have no eggy smell to them. Eggy smell indicates H2S gas (a byproduct of anaerobic bacteria in an aquarium) and thats why I was poking the substrate in my first npt. At first the gas was stinky and once I had established plants (i define established as 'measurable growth') I noticed that the gas stopped smelling of eggs and became odourless. In another forum Im on, Im told that this means that my N bacteria are working and one byproduct is co2. Another benefit of a stable dirted tank is the abundance of DOC from decomposing organic matter in the soil. While Im not sure about the science in regard to the Co2, this is what Walstad touts in her literature. I also have the evidence in my 20 Gal that the method works and therefore receives a merit badge from me I didnt add co2 in my 20 gallon. Im just wanting to give my plants a boost from the dry part of this experiment. If my plants lag right now, I could have a serious amount of algae to deal with in this tank, and I dont want that. My 20 gal didnt have to deal with a transition period at the beginning being a normal plant and fill style tank. With a dsm there is typically a period of stagnancy while the plants adjust to lower Co2 levels and, especially with the high nutrient values in an npt, this is a prime time for algae to come in and pillage my tank boo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fisher Posted April 4, 2013 Report Share Posted April 4, 2013 I didnt add co2 in my 20 gallon. Im just wanting to give my plants a boost from the dry part of this experiment. If my plants lag right now, I could have a serious amount of algae to deal with in this tank, and I dont want that. My 20 gal didnt have to deal with a transition period at the beginning being a normal plant and fill style tank. With a dsm there is typically a period of stagnancy while the plants adjust to lower Co2 levels and, especially with the high nutrient values in an npt, this is a prime time for algae to come in and pillage my tank boo ... marshalling the benefits of dsm into npt. Does Diana mention taking this approach? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbarr Posted April 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 ok, I did some digging about this because I wasnt satisfied with the answer that I felt I was unable to give. I checked in Walstads book. I cant speak to the validity of the information past her PHD lol. I cross checked with wiki ( i know, I know) and feel satisfied that I can at least give an answer in very basic terms. So to expand on what I was saying earlier. The soil substrate has an anaerobic aspect to it. Anaerobic bacteria create a bunch of things but in keeping with the subject currently at hand I will talk about H2S and Methane. H2S is produced in anaerobic environments. Its produced during a process called anaerobic digestion. Organic matter must be present for this to occur and that is why there will be little if any measurable quantity of H2S in a tank with inert substrate. H2S is oxidized when it reachs areas of the substrate that are aerobic and this reaction leaves behind SO4 2-, sulfate. I gather that this is something that needs to be attended to in the early stages only because the O2 levels produced by the plants is not at its peak until things all get established. Its also the reason that artificial water current is recommended during the beginning stages and not required later on. I will not lie to you, I cant find any references at this time about what happens to these sulfates after this point. If I find any, I will be sure to update on this thread. Methane CH4 is another by product of anaerobic bacteria in the substrate. When oxidized its by products are Co2 and H2O. Good stuff. Aerobic decomposition releases carbon into the water column. Walstad says that Co2 is produced during this process. I seem to have missed the scientific explanation behind this in her literature, however I suspect that the carbon would react with the O2 in the water, bonding into CO2. Being that this would all be happening at a microscopic level I wouldnt be surprised if things then went beyond this and bonded into H2CO3 or carbonic acid. If Im not mistaken, this is the process that metricide or excel are trying to reproduce. Again, this last bit is largely speculation. As far as Walstad talking about DSM, I have a link below to an article detailing a couple of her experiences with DSM setups. http://www.bookmasters.com/marktplc/00388Shrimp.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvision Posted April 5, 2013 Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 Your basic Methane oxidation reaction is pretty simple: CH4 + 2(O2)--> CO2 + 2(H2O). And, you are right about H2CO3 - there will be an equilibrium in the tank of carbonic acid, carbon dioxide and bicarbonate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamesbarr Posted April 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted April 5, 2013 sweet. I was going to take the principles of this method at face value, but Im happy that Im digging deeper. Having a little more knowledge of how it all works makes me appreciate it more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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