Is CO2 worth the 'trouble'?

[Tanker]

Finally got around to testing the water parameters and this is what I have come up with... I am off the charts :oops:

My pH is rock steady at 7.4-7.6 (the shade of green is too close to call) and my KH is 110 mg/L which according to my test kit I multiply by 0.056 to get the 'degrees', right?

So that puts me at 6 degrees or so, which according to the handy chart I have found places me with 5-7 ppm CO2.

Simply pathetic!

But at the same time, that's a happy level for my tank... I added a couple new plants last week (including some really nice Red Tiger Lotus from Jason :thumbs:) and they are doing VERY well. I may have my tank balanced to some extent... I'll be adding more fish as I find them up to a max of about 40 (there are 30 in there now) and adding some more wood to the 'pile' but other than that, I'm happy. I'm just concerned that if I start messing with too many things, I'll kill the works.

Once next summer comes and I am in my fishroom with a couple 100+ gallon tanks, I'll be able to experiment a little with various combinations, but right now I think I'm going to play it safe and try not to screw anything up, too bad.

Oh... here's a question: How will I know when things start going down hill? eg. deficiencies or problems? Obviously "everything will die" will be a pretty good clue, but are there other suggestions of things for my specific plants I can keep an eye on?

[Milan]

Oh... here's a question: How will I know when things start going down hill? eg. deficiencies or problems? Obviously "everything will die" will be a pretty good clue, but are there other suggestions of things for my specific plants I can keep an eye on?

Tanker, there is a good site describing nutrient deficiencies. Read here. With your CO2 and light levels you will not see a vigorous plant growth, but they should stay healthy. However, I would try to up the CO2 level to ~ 10-15 ppm. Your diffuser or gas supply is not up to the task. Try increasing the bubble rate, and if this does not help, you may want to consider some more efficient way of diffusing the CO2. I would not add more fish at this time as it brings more variables to what you are already dealing with.

[HOSStile]

Build yourself a Big Bubba!. I have a helium tank that I bought with a party balloon kit for 25 bucks at toys are us, I am boring a hole in it so I can fill it up and putting a cork or universal crank case plug in it to seal it afterwards. It is about 3/4 the size of a propane tank and has an adjustable valve. I will send a picture when it's done. When I opened my big bubba valve open I could get more C02 going than my air pump was making. Course it wouldn't last as long.

[jvision]

Tanker, there is a good site describing nutrient deficiencies. Read here. With your CO2 and light levels you will not see a vigorous plant growth, but they should stay healthy. However, I would try to up the CO2 level to ~ 10-15 ppm. Your diffuser or gas supply is not up to the task. Try increasing the bubble rate, and if this does not help, you may want to consider some more efficient way of diffusing the CO2. I would not add more fish at this time as it brings more variables to what you are already dealing with.

I agree with Milan, here. Before you add more fish, up the CO2. CO2 is ALWAYS the most important nutrient to add. You found this out by just adding 5ppm! Adding more CO2 will not impact anything in a negative way, as long as your plants are healthy.

Once you up the CO2 a bit (try adding a ventury inline with your spray bar), you can easily add more fish w/o much trouble. If you add more fish now, you'll likely see an increase in algae. At your current light level, you should be able to keep a relatively high fishload, feed them well, and see excellent results from your plants. Should you decide to up the light, you'll have to start dosing ferts to keep the algae down (I know it sounds odd, but it's true!) - if you keep the plants well fed, they'll out compete the algae.

I fertilize using the Estimative Index, and no longer us any of my test kits (just pH & KH once in a while), PM me, and we can work out a deal.

[Milan]

Build yourself a Big Bubba!. I have a helium tank that I bought with a party balloon kit for 25 bucks at toys are us, I am boring a hole in it so I can fill it up and putting a cork or universal crank case plug in it to seal it afterwards. It is about 3/4 the size of a propane tank and has an adjustable valve. I will send a picture when it's done. When I opened my big bubba valve open I could get more C02 going than my air pump was making. Course it wouldn't last as long.

Gee HOSStile ... Your inovative spirit doesn't fall short of anything. Some day you will be running a septic tank filled with yeast and sugar... :w00t:

[Toirtis]

I am going to be dropping by a brewing supply shop soon and am going to buy and try some champagne yeast and fruit sugar, which, I hope, should give me better CO2 output than baking/brewers yeast and normal granulated white sugar.

[Tanker]

I found a neato way of not only securely fitting a hose to the lid of a pop bottle, but it integrates a check valve, as well... might add this to the DIY someday... but for now it can live here.

For this 'project' you'll need the following tools and supplies:

-3/8 drill bit preferably with a drill to turn it

-pop bottle of your choosing

-Loctite Xtreme Repair (WalMart, Rona, Home Depot, etc)

-plastic check valve

-silicone tubing

1) Drill (or have a helper hold the lid securely while you hold the drill bit and spin around in a circle) a hole in the lid in the center. I used a 13/64" bit because it was handy and looked close, and was a tad bit loose of a fit. But it will work, if you're like me and all my standard size bits are a dull as... um... I'll censor myself, here.

2) Using a toothpick or similar item, spread a healthy dose of Xtreme Repair around the hole in the inside of the cap. Make sure to get a good bead on there, but do no 'cover' the hole, as the barb will possibly end up getting some on the opening when you push it through.

3) Blow into the check valve and make sure it's a) functional and which direction it flows and push it through from the inside, so only the barb sticks through the lid. Ensure you oriented the check valve so it flows from the inside-out. Preferably, you'll get some Xtreme Repair on the barb when it goes through. If not, put a VERY small dab on the barb part, NOT CLOSE TO THE HOLE in the barb-end.

4) Push the check valve in tight, and push on the tubing end to the exposed 'outside' barb. Make sure the tubing goes all the way down to the lid, as this will help to secure the check valve on the inside of the lid which helps the seal.

5) Let set for 24 hours to cure.

Done. Check valve integrated DIY CO2 fitting.

Sorry for the crappy pics... this is what we get when I am too lazy to go in the other room and get my good camera... it's camera phone time!

BTW: BIG plug for Loctite Xtreme Repair, here... it is a silicone based glue that sticks to EVERYTHING, and is completely aquarium safe, to 18" deep. I am quite smitten with this stuff, and have been finding lots of uses for it, all over the house. $5 for 30 ml tube. Keep a tube in the fish drawer/cabinet/room for that 'just in case' situation.

[HOSStile]

I used the same stuff on Big Bubba. The only thing that I question on your design is that it will work just fine as long as your sugar yeast solution does'nt lose pressure and foam up, plugging up your check valve. Thats what happened to my first pop bottle. Notice on Bubba I used much bigger line.

[HOSStile]

Gee HOSStile ... Your inovative spirit doesn't fall short of anything. Some day you will be running a septic tank filled with yeast and sugar... :w00t:

This will be my progression

Pop bottle reactor (not shown)

Big Bubba 1 (far right, in use now) -ham-

Bigger Bubba 2 (middle, final stages of production) -ham- -ham-

Biggest Bubba 3 (5 gal. GOD PLEASE DON'T LET A LINE PLUG UP size) -ham- -ham- -ham-

Edited October 25, 2005 by HOSStile

[Milan]

No wonder why I couldn't find any sugar at the local grocery store yesterday ... :rofl:

[Tanker]

I picked up some Acid Buffer this past weekend, and have brought my tank down to a pH of 7.0 and KH is ~3-3.5 degrees. According to the chart, this is 8-10 ppm CO2, which is much better IMO.

*ya hoo*

I was reading up on the 'natural' ways to lower pH but none of them were reported to work well with high KH, whereas this Acid Buffer converts the KH to CO2... seemed to be just the trick.

Now the only problem I think I'll run into is getting my water change water down to the same pH... I have 3.5 gallon buckets which means I have to use 1/24 of a teaspoon per bucket :grr:

Any suggestions on measuring out such small amounts?

[jvision]

I add the Acid Buffer right to the tank for the WCs - that way I don't have to worry about teeny tiny messurements.

What I do for the tanks I use buckets for, is take out all the water I'm wanting to change (ie. 2-3 buckets full), then add all the chemicals (Prime, Acid buffer, ferts); then I add the water back. Haven't had any problems.

The thing to note is that when dosing Prime, dose for the entire tank volume. When I dose Acid Buffer, I dose for the total volume of water I'm adding.

Hope this Helps.

[Milan]

Tanker, tinkering with KH/pH will not add any CO2 to the water. It may only skew your CO2 calcs, not to mention the unnecessary cost of the stuff you are adding. If you wish to lower your pH, for whatever reason (??), the only proper way is to add more CO2 gas. Your original KH=6 was just fine.

Edited November 2, 2005 by Milan

[Tanker]

The Acid Buffer says on it that it converts KH to CO2... so I figured that was a good thing?

My assumption was that with the GH and KH being so high, pH will not change hence limiting the CO2 available to be in the water.

That, and all my fish are supposedly happier in a pH of 7.0 which was my target.

Meh... I give up

I'm just going to let it grow, let it grow, let it grow!

[Milan]

I am not familiar with the chemical reaction that "Acid Buffer" will cause, but even if true that some small amount of CO2 (or Carbon in any form) is released as a by product, it will be short lived. It will be quickly consumed, in a matter of hours, if not minutes, and that would be the end of it.

KH or pH do not limit the amount of dissolved CO2 in any sense. The only limitations are the CO2 supply (yeats/sugar) and diffusion efficiency (reactor or diffuser). The less the two are limitting, the more dissolved gas is in the water, hence lower the pH, while KH remains the same.

Edited November 3, 2005 by Milan