breeding tip

[RD.]

Reza - this thread offers more input on the correct method of acclimatizing bagged fish, and why the drip method, or floating for long periods, can sometimes prove to be counter productive.

http://www.cichlid-forum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=25355

It's the sudden release ammonia in the bag that can often prove to be lethal.

Sorry, I didn't mean for any of this to come off as a rant, or a hijack on dunl's original post. I simply don't feel that anyone (especially some of the forum members new to Africans) should atttempt such large scale water changes, unless they know exactly what they are doing. While an African cichlid may live for years in a tank with nitrates in excess of 100 ppm, it's now widely accepted that the stress from that environment will in fact slowly weaken the fishes immune system, opening it up to the potentail of disease and/or secondary infections, as well as a shortened lifespan. IMO one needs to look beyond immediate stressors, and also consider the effects of cumulative stress.

[dunl]

If a massive change between water parameters is so bad, why is it a good idea to take a fish from a bag and net it into a tank full of water with most likely different parameters?

[RD.]

If a massive change between water parameters is so bad, why is it a good idea to take a fish from a bag and net it into a tank full of water with most likely different parameters?

It becomes the lesser of two evils. It also depends on what the water parameters are where the fish was bagged, how long the fish have been in the bag, and if an ammonia reducing agent was used when they were bagged. As an example, I think that you'll find that the water parameters in Edmonton, Red Deer, and Calgary, are fairly close with regards to pH, GH, KH, TDS, etc, so other than a possible slight shift in the temperature of that bagged water, there isn't much potential for any serious stress. On the flip side, if the fish have been in the bags for several hrs (or longer), and the bags have been stocked heavily, with no ammonia reducing agents, then the potential for some serious stress is there. Usually this involves fish that have been shipped overnight (or longer) or where the fish are quite large. Another good reason why one should not feed their fish for a min of 48 hrs if they are being bagged for more than a few hrs. (excess ammonia will be the result)

A prime example of this is the last shipment that arrived at the local Petland from Winnipeg, where numerous bags contained fish that were already gasping for air on arrival here in town (from excess ammonia build up), with many of those fish not lasting much longer than 24 hrs once released into the tanks here. Those fish were floated (bad idea) and the end result of that was a serious loss of fish. As it was a lot of them may not have survived due to the ammonia toxicity in those bags, but no doubt the floating for 30 minutes or longer added to the loss. The higher the pH of your water, the more toxic ammonia becomes, so in these parts it's somethng that one should always take preventative action against.

[Reza]

The one thing I find with my tank (in regrds to pH) is that over time the buffer drops and my pH ends up around 6!! I tend to change 30% of the tanks water weekly which keep my nitrates around 40 ppm. I guess i'm guilty of overfeeding.

[midgetwaiter]

I don't buy the pH / TDS thing even if the articles sound pretty good. pH shock is real, I've screwed up and caused it a couple times. I want to believe but when you see it with your own eyes...

Anyone doing big water changes should be aware and double check, 3 drops in a test tube takes about 2 seconds. Especially if you are using snow or rainwater to get a seasonal spawner to go.

[RD.]

I'm not sure what to make of the pH shock argument, but what I do know is that there's more than just potential pH swings that one should consider before doing large scale water changes. (as in over 50%)

[dunl]

I'm finding it hard to believe that bagged water from a LFS is going to match your tank water better than your water you usually use for water changes at your place of residence.

Plus the garbage about contamination from the bags themselves, as they could possibly be contaminated with pathogens from every tank in the store, due to coming in contact with towels, water from other tanks, etc. You think the nets only ever go into one tank? Face it, the LFS water probably DOES have pathogens from every tank anyway. The only reason for netting them out of the bag and into the tank is to get them into good water conditions and away from the ammonia build-up.

But then again, I also believe that fish enjoy having a variety of food for variety's sake.

[RD.]

I'm finding it hard to believe that bagged water from a LFS is going to match your tank water better than your water you usually use for water changes at your place of residence.

I guess that would depend on your local tap water, the tank water at your LFS, and the parameters of your tank water when you introduce the fish to your tank. The pH of my tap water is approx 7.6 (right out of the tap) but settles out at approx 7.9-8.0 after 24 hrs. And that's just the pH. BTW - I said that it was the lesser of two evils, not that that LFS water would better match everyones tap water.

Plus the garbage about contamination from the bags themselves, as they could possibly be contaminated with pathogens from every tank in the store, due to coming in contact with towels, water from other tanks, etc. You think the nets only ever go into one tank? Face it, the LFS water probably DOES have pathogens from every tank anyway. The only reason for netting them out of the bag and into the tank is to get them into good water conditions and away from the ammonia build-up.

Yes, of course there's always a risk of introducing unwanted pathogens from a LFS (some MUCH more so than others), so why not do what you can to eliminate as many of those potential pathogens as possible?

Some people don't believe in quarantining new fish, and might even get away with never having any serious health issues in their main tank from this type of practice, but that doesn't mean that suggesting that one should never bother to qt new fish is good advice. Garbage? I don't think so .....

But then again, I also believe that fish enjoy having a variety of food for variety's sake.

No problem, to each their own. If the day ever comes that my fish start turning their nose up at the food that I offer them, then I'll consider adding more of a variety for their 'enjoyment'. I would say by the amount of water I have to clean up after feeding my Africans, my fish are thoroughly enjoying the food that I give them. :rofl:

[dunl]

BTW - I said that it was the lesser of two evils, not that that LFS water would better match everyones tap water.

Sorry, can't agree there. I can't justify it being the lesser of the two evils when you know what you are dealing with concerning your own water, compared to an unknown like LFS water. How do you know the PH level of the bagged water? Are you testing it first? If not, how do you know you aren't going to shock the fish?

Yes, of course there's always a risk of introducing unwanted pathogens from a LFS (some MUCH more so than others), so why not do what you can to eliminate as many of those potential pathogens as possible?

I'm just stating that it's not a good method to keep pathogens out of the tank, when they are more likely to already be in the bagged water, and transferred from the net anyway. It's like quarantining fish that are ALREADY in your tank.

[RD.]

I make it a habit of knowing the the tap water parameters where I purchase fish, so unless the tank where these fish came from has been seriously neglected, or the fish have been in the bag for many hrs, yes, I already know that the pH in my tank won't cause them any major stress. And yes, in some cases I have in fact tested it just to be on the safe side.

As far as pathogens, I think it's safe to say that all fish tanks contain pathogens, as do most healthy fish. The key is keeping those pathogen numbers as low as humanly possible, and keeping the immune system of your fish as high as humanly possible. When a fish comes under any serious stress (such as possibly happening during a massive 80-90% water change) their immune systems can become compromised, and those pathogens that are usually of no great threat to the fish, can suddenly take hold & cause major health issues, sometimes surfacing as what's commonly referred to as Malawi bloat.

From Ad Konings "Back to Nature Guide to Malawi" Cichlids 2nd. edition pg. 46:

"Malawi Bloat is believed to be caused by a flagellate (a unicellular animal, a protozoan). This flagellate occurs in the intestines of all Malawi cichlids but normally causes no harm since the fish's immune system can cope with it. However, in a stressful situation such a balance may disappear and the fish may lose its resistance against an outbreak of a flagellate "attack". This often leads to bloat."

If you personally feel that performing such massive water changes in your tanks is of no serious concern, then that's fine by me. I was simply pointing out to fellow forum members why this might not be such a great idea.

Later .......

Edited March 1, 2006 by RD.

[RDFISHGUY]

IMHO such massive water changes are, at the very least, a last ditch effort . To keep your fish in breeding form you must avoid the urge to feed your fish every time you go past the tank. When's the last time you caught a rainbow trout with an obesity problem? Water changes are something that if done on regular basis will result in good water quality and happy fish . Exactly how much water you should change depends on your tanks inhabitants. I do weekly WC of 30%. The few times that I have had problems with my tanks have been after large water changes . It may work for some people but its as trivial as leaving the lights on longer or raising the temperature . Sure it works but with a good maintenance schedule its unnecessary. My lights are on 12 hrs / day and my temp is 80 F . I currently have over 6 females holding that weren't informed of the moons cycle. Just haphazard fish sex which I encourage through regular maintenance. My advice is to keep a journal of when you do water changes, clean filters , add fish ,etc . When your fish do spawn : What are the water parameters? ie: temp,ph, hardness. Once you find out what the key to success is ,all you have to do is replicate it . Different fish will have different requirements. There are many different websites, books, and other resources out there . Talk to successful breeders and find out their methods. Not just one either. Gather as much info from as many sources as possible . This way you can sort out the good advice from the bad. I'm not saying anyone is giving bad advice but a little research never hurt anyone.

Edited March 1, 2006 by RDFISHGUY