An Ethical Question

[dunl]

I neither condone or support this practice but I think that the reaction of people here to it is unnessecarily shrill.

Like you said, it's a cultural difference.

So why is the cultural reaction of a society where the majority do not view this as ethical - "shrill"?

[Froggie]

but is this more ethical than betta fighting

From an academic standpoint? Yes, the intention does rather clearly dictate the ethical significance of the act.

[Toirtis]

I understand that some of you feel that the police may not care, but if something is illegal, then they *have* to act on it, right?

Actually, no...they get to make professional 'calls' on such things, and really, in this case, the gaming comission would need to do an investigation first.

[Krystle]

I understand that some of you feel that the police may not care, but if something is illegal, then they *have* to act on it, right?

Actually, no...they get to make professional 'calls' on such things, and really, in this case, the gaming comission would need to do an investigation first.

Ahh... See, this I did not know

Meh, I just don't understand the double standard that exists with pets... If people breed pitbulls and fight them and other people gamble on the fights there really aren't any if's and's or but's about it, you know? It's cruel and sick and the authorities get called in and they get busted. But with fish, well they aren't fuzzy or cute so it's like it doesn't matter It breaks my tree-hugging little hippy heart lol.

Now lets all just get along. wub.gif

* :heart: gets along :heart: *

EDIT: just wanted to add that this isn't directed at anyone in particular, in case it looks like it is, just a general observation of society in general that makes me sad.

Edited April 5, 2006 by Guppylove1985

[Toirtis]

But with fish, well they aren't fuzzy or cute so it's like it doesn't matter

Tell me about it...it is one of the grim, ugly truths of conservation work....people love to save seal pups, but not fish/reptiles/amphibians/bugs/plants....and why the WWF's logo is a panda and not a Banff Springs snail.

[midgetwaiter]

Like you said, it's a cultural difference.

So why is the cultural reaction of a society where the majority do not view this as ethical - "shrill"?

Some selected quotes from the first page of the thread:

First I'd laugh! Then call him an idiot and kick him out.

I'd call for someone else to start bagging the fish, and go call the cops right there.

By the expression on my face, he would know to "GET THE ^*(&(&*(&) outta my store!

Shrill, pointless, somewhat ignorant, take your pick. Keep in mind that I do agree with the sentiment, I just think that there isn't much of a place for that kind of simplistic view. The vast majority of people DO NOT agree that this is a big deal.

[dunl]

Shrill, pointless, somewhat ignorant, take your pick.

I understand. Just keep in mind that many people in North America would label more liberal views on gambling outside of this continent in the same way.

Yes, it is a cultural difference - it just works both ways, right? Actually, it's a cultural norm...it's what is accepted in your own society, and how that is viewed by other societies.

[DAlberta]

I have mixed feelings about feeding feeders to a carnivorous fish but we shouldn't overlook this is done for food ..... not for human entertainment. Most people accept a deer may be hunted and eaten by a larger animal (such as a bear) but many would feel uncomfortable about watching bull fighting.

Honestly I don't think this has anything to do with picking on any culture. In retrospect other cultures (most of the world actually) accept the fact organized crime runs their government and local buisinesses. Bribes are commonplace, c*ck fighting, eating dogs and cats and horrific bear farms (which have open wounds to get the bile) are also "cultural practices" which most people in this country firmly reject

These betting rings frequently have strong connections to organized crime. We are kidding ourselves if the organizers of these events are conserned about the animal's welfare.

True this is an emotional debate but simply turning a blind eye to (deliberatley) abused animals is unacceptable to many (if not most) people here

Dave

What is more, I find this a fairly tricky subject, since some of it borders dangerously on cultural centrism, and really has nothing to do with facilitating crime (any more so than selling a pack of cards or a pair of dice).

Tortis brings up an important point here, there are cultures that do not have the same views on fish fights that most of you may have. Given the immigration rates in Canada and our supposedly "Multicultural" society a little understanding should be in order. I'm not saying you have to support or condone it, just give the fact that there are some serious cultural differences some consideration. This point has been made before in some of the dyed fish discussions.

The gambling / facilitating crime bit is interesting. I have no doubt that the only reason you would see police involvement in this kind of situation is because of the gambling. Hideo said as much if you read his post carefully. I currently make my living in the gaming industry so I've got some perspective on this that I'd like to share.

Pretty much nowhere outside of North America is there such a hypocritical knee jerk reaction to unsanctioned gambling or for that matter gambling in general. I deal with gaming organizations in Europe and Asia every day, there is a huge difference in the way gambling is viewed here. I know there's several casinos in town but there is still a certain stigma attached to gambling as recreation. Looking at the original post I honestly can't tell if the poster is more offended about the fish fighting or that people are gambling on it. Again a situation that requires a little consideration of cultural differences.

I neither condone or support this practice but I think that the reaction of people here to it is unnessecarily shrill.

[Devon]

Personally, I take all of those things into consideration when I'm selling fish. When I sell feeders, I ask what size the animal they're feeding is, and if the animal is obviously to small to take that feeder in one bite, I strongly urge the customer to go with the next size down.

Although I understand cultural differences, I as a Petsmart employee have the right to uphold Petsmarts moral and ethical standards no matter if that person's culture disagrees. I do not condone fighting bettas, obviously, and I have had two different situations like this. One group was buying a large number of bettas, and whenver this happens I get suspicious and ask if they are to be in the same tank. One of the people laughed and said, they would meet eachother eventually. I asked him if they were to be fighting on them, and he said that yes, they were going to have a party and fight them and bet on them. I told him that It was company policy not to sell animals to a customer if they are going to be putting it into a inhumane situation, nor were we allowed to sell animals to be eaten by other animals unless they are feeder golds, rosie reds, ghostshrimp, or zebra danios.

As for comparing it to feeding mice or gerbils to snakes, there is no comparison. I disagree with feeding live rodents to snakes, I always kill my mice beforehand, in one quick strike to the head...much different then being ripped apart. The rabbits and rats are euthanized with C02, again much different then being ripped to peices.

[Toirtis]

nor were we allowed to sell animals to be eaten by other animals unless they are feeder golds, rosie reds, ghostshrimp, or zebra danios.

Is that not a double-standard, though?

I disagree with feeding live rodents to snakes, ...much different then being ripped apart. The rabbits and rats are euthanized with C02, again much different then being ripped to peices.

You must have very different snakes than any I have encountered....in 34 years of keeping thousands of snakes, I have yet to see one 'rip apart' any feeder of any type, live or dead....snakes eat their food whole.

[Devon]

nor were we allowed to sell animals to be eaten by other animals unless they are feeder golds, rosie reds, ghostshrimp, or zebra danios.

Is that not a double-standard, though?

I disagree with feeding live rodents to snakes, ...much different then being ripped apart. The rabbits and rats are euthanized with C02, again much different then being ripped to peices.

You must have very different snakes than any I have encountered....in 34 years of keeping thousands of snakes, I have yet to see one 'rip apart' any feeder of any type, live or dead....snakes eat their food whole.

Um, yes, I know.

I was saying that the euthanasia of feeder rodents and rabbits is a lot different then two bettas ripping eachother apart.

And yes, it is a double standard. But there is always going to be a double standard. I mean, people eat pigs and cows and the majority of people don't have a problem with this. On the other hand, the same majority would most likely be against the slaughter of cats and dogs. Eating pigs and cows isnt' illegal, but I'm pretty sure eating a dog and cat would be considered animal abuse. There's no difference between these animals aside from our emotional view of them, and our attachment to their species. Petsmart recognizes that people have animals that need to eat fish, but lets limit them to a few species. The only reason for somebody to be killing a fish bought from Petsmart is to feed it to another animal. There are a select few that you can use as feeders, only because these are what produce easily and can be sold cheap and are the generally accepted species. If we started selling feeder bettas, Im sure we would get more then a few complaints, just as if you started up a farm of dogs and cats for slaughter.

Edited April 13, 2006 by Devon

[Michael Roth]

Needs vs. wants, really. My <insert picky predator here> eats live <insert haples prey here> vs.I want to see <two cute things> beat the living piss out of each other. Personally I could care less about whether or not two creatures slightly smarter than celery fight for a while, even (melodramatic music) to the death.

How would I like it?

I wouldn't be smart enough to stop myself from doing it, let alone care to.

[Toirtis]

Eating pigs and cows isnt' illegal, but I'm pretty sure eating a dog and cat would be considered animal abuse.

Not at all....completely legal in Canada so long as the animals are dispatched in a humane manner.

Petsmart recognizes that people have animals that need to eat fish,

But they do not apparently recognise that people have animals that need to eat rodents and lagomorphs.

[Devon]

Eating pigs and cows isnt' illegal, but I'm pretty sure eating a dog and cat would be considered animal abuse.

Not at all....completely legal in Canada so long as the animals are dispatched in a humane manner.

Petsmart recognizes that people have animals that need to eat fish,

But they do not apparently recognise that people have animals that need to eat rodents and lagomorphs.

Actually, in the near future the company plans to stock frozen rodents.

Also, we do not sell any animals that require rodents.

I am really tired of people addressing their concerns with Petsmart to me. I am just a specialty employee. If you want Petsmart to carry feeder rodents, then email the head office.

In Petsmarts official statement, though, it says something along the lines of "Petsmart recognizes that many people have animals requiring feeder rodents. Here at Petsmart our small animals are sold for pets and we do not sell animals requiring rodent prey. We ask that you please buy feeder rodents elsewhere. Thank you for understanding"

[Toirtis]

Actually, in the near future the company plans to stock frozen rodents.

About time.

Also, we do not sell any animals that require rodents.

Never understood why...you would think that their need to be watm, fuzzy and happy would have long since been overcome by the potential profits from the explosively-growing snake market.

I am really tired of people addressing their concerns with Petsmart to me. I am just a specialty employee. If you want Petsmart to carry feeder rodents, then email the head office.

I wasn't...you started it by waving the PetsMart flag, and I chose to point out some inconsistencies...questions you may wish to ask of the corporation you uphold the values of while you are on the job.

We ask that you please buy feeder rodents elsewhere. Thank you for understanding"

No worries there...only an idiot would pay anything close to what PetsMart charges, for a feeder. LOL