Killi section???

[Toirtis]

I just use a mortar and pestle...about 2/3 less expensive than the spice-grinder, and no batteries to buy.

[Oxquo]

Both good ideas for food grinding... I am pretty sure that as with any fish, a combination of foods creates the best success. Live "not frozen" Creates the chase, I put gammarus in My nimbochromis tank and it was a blast watching them hit the hard to catch bugs, their color was almost that of wild fish. Yet a quality food or pellet to supplement vitamins etc... missed in live food and color pigments can't hurt. Whether they spawn littlle or alot is a non-factor. 4 healthy fry beats 100 gibbled fry any day but I still say there is no one food, a combination offers a variety and variety is the spice of life. In the same way, bigger is not always better, I look for color in fish and fish that are specific to their description, while a 4" guppy may look cool, it is not right and would not be a good specimen to breed. One of the problems with starting killies out on powder food is that You may end up with a largely male population due to the smaller females getting little to fit in their mouths. Paramecia, rotifers and microworms is the only hope that a few ladies make it to maturity. Often killi spawning reports state that mostly males survived, but started the fry off on BBS, meaning it wasn't that most of the eggs were male but the females who are much smaller starved and perished. Adding java moss to the tank allows the much smaller females to be able to hide and eat micro foods at the same time, that is truly the art of survival at it's best. More importantly is that killies more often than not prefer a 3-1 female to male ratio, this makes mostly males a waste of breeding time. It would be better to starve out males than females, therefore I will start the food experiment at 2 weeks or more for some species. Growing females in larger tanks with twice as often water changes can bring them up to speed with the males as well, they won't get beaten down so bad during spawning either. I think raising them closer to tetras as opposed to livebearing toothcarps is a good procedure to follow. Focus on the smaller fish, the larger fish will survive too.

Damn, I'm almost ready for a Killi forum, lol. Hey Killi tanker? JK. I do know what You mean about interest, but just like aquiring killi's more info on them creates more interest. Betta popularity is alot due to two things I believe, Availability and cruel living conditions which create impulse buys. People want to rescue them. If a store replaced it's bettas with killies in little tiny jars, I bet there would be a tonne out there. I mean lets face it, recuing a betta and puting it in a 2 ounce shot glass or those little cute heart shaped death bowls is worse than in the store yet people do it. If You had a 2 gallon bowl, you could have 3 small killies some plants and offer them a good life still.

To clear up the myth, betta's come from puddles, puddles in rice fields huge stinking rice fields. Even though they look cramped, as workers harvest the rice the fish can move from place to place. Betta's are placed in small ponds and puddles for mosquito control but it is not their habitat.

Killies live in rivers, streams, lakes and ponds and puddles, some which dry up seasonally, killies do jump very well and can find the smallest flaw in Your aquarium lid, they do in the wild occassionally and depending on species of killi jump from puddle to puddle, I believe but it's not confirmed, looking for more mates not food. I would say the average Nothobranchius or aphyosemion is way more suited to large bowl or small tank life than bettas. They are more active, compatible and colorful. Nothing against keeping betta's at all, but I think they should squeeze over a touch cause there is a new, more suitable bowl fish in town....

GOT KILLIES??????

[RD.]

Yet a quality food or pellet to supplement vitamins etc... missed in live food and color pigments can't hurt.

With all due respect, if you think that's all your fish are getting from a premium pellet food, you're missing the mark by a longshot. Yes, variety is the spice of life, but there's no reason that all of the variety that a fish requires can't be contained in a single pellet food. I have fish swimming in my tanks that could easily be passed off as wild caught, in size, form, and color, and they have been raised on an exclusive diet of pellet food since the day they were spit. And on that same note, I've seen wild caught fish of the same species that paled in comparison to mine. The fish will still spawn on a regular basis, and produce as many eggs/fry (and in many cases more) as one could ever hope to get from feeding a wide variety of various foods, including live.

Will a killi show just as good color on an exclusive diet of NLS vs live foods, according to some people yes.

Will they spawn as often, or produce as many eggs, I believe that the jury is still out on that one.

[RD.]

BTW - I would still start killi fry off on live foods, as you will have a lower fry mortality rate (due to them eating, which is goal #1) than on a commercial food.

[Oxquo]

By all means a pellet food carries the requirements needed and sometimes more. I have seen good results from NLS, Can it be crushed fine enough to raise Cardinals or neons? Maybe with soaking it in water and blending it. It would be messier than micros or rotifers. Will pellet create the craze and excitement that a net full of gammarus can produce? I am not bashing the food at all. Simply I am saying that giving Your fish a well balanced diet of quality flake or pellet is great, but lets not forget that most fish are hunters whether it be insects or fish, hunting is exciting for them and they love to do it. If one fed their fish 3 times daily, two pellet or flake and one live would be a good routine. One of the worst ways to advertise any product, would be to say that there is no other. It has been the reason that I have strayed away from NLS from the beginning. Aside from My experiment with the discus, which ended up being african food because they didn't like it much. I think the food is likely great, if the results are true as they appear, wonderful. As the be all end all of foods? We will see, every product is topped by another product sooner or later. That is the nature of today's World, Rather than create something new we try to re-create something and make it better. How a product is presented is mostly the key to success. Shopping in a commission based store often pisses Me off and I will likely buy somewhere else even at a higher price. All I am saying is the product can speak by itself. People still eat at Mc Donalds even after "Supersize Me". It hasn't hurt the business at all. Why? because people know what they are getting and aren't pressured into spending their money there. Are there other restaraunts? Yep. Are there other quality fish foods? yep. Should We omit live from our fishes diet? As a fishkeeper it is easiest that way, as an aquarist, live food is the nature of the beast, it's part of the science that brings the hobby to that next step. The truth is that there is no solid evidence that feeding any pellet or flake food of any brand produces better egg production or for that matter that any food is the be all end all. There is on the other hand solid proof that wild fish love live food, tame fish love live food and breeding when all else fails is best with live food. The fact is that live food often does not contain everything a fish needs for a complete diet. Commercial products can control the amounts that go into the fish and add the little extras. I have never heard of Astaxanthin growing in a killi pond but adding it helps alot with color.

In the end, it is the consumers money, some will buy other products because it's cheaper and good enough, some like to raise live food as a supplement because they like the results it creates. As a cleaner upper in a killi or betta bowl no pellet compares to daphnia or scuds. Some can't stand the fact that even if a food is the lobster and steak dinner of all foods, they would not themselves love to eat steak and lobster everyday of their life and they want to give their fish that same option. For anyone to tell these people that it is wrong to feed anything other than their food will simply either piss off the consumer so they buy none at all, or feel like they are in a consumer trap. Example, the Oil patch VS Hybrid VS Biodiesel. No one likes to feel trapped. I myself put off NLS for two years after the discus experiment due to badgering about NLS and it's be all end all of foods. Be glad that I have bought 6 - 5lb pails, be glad that I may use it and enjoy it and become a testament of it's goodness. I will never and suggest that no one ever neglects the positive effect of live or even frozen foods, but chooses to experiment and feed a high quality staple food along with the live or frozen. No one has proof that a variety is a bad thing. If I wouldn't have gotten such a deal on the NLS I may not have tried it again. I know that You sell the stuff, I respect that and will never say where I got Mine so cheap, so I hope You can appreciate that and respect My opinion on mixing quality food with live.

As for killies, keeping them and breeding them on pellet food seems mixed but somewhat passable, does anyone have plausible results on rearing fry from the start on crushed pellets, or even neons or cardinals? Africans, SA's and CA's are alot different. I would like to hear from the small fish breeders and no I don't mean livebearers but small mouths without polluting effects.

Not trying to crap on Your party RD but, I believe I also know a thing or two about nutrition as I have a certificate that says I do, of course a majority of that is based on Dogs, cats and small animals and not fish, I would like to think that in 16 years of fishkeeping I have done something correct and that before NLS came along people were still able to raise quality fish and we weren't just poisoning them. I have nothing more to say on food except this...............KILLI

[RD.]

You couldn't crap on my party if you spent a lifetime trying.

One of the worst ways to advertise any product, would be to say that there is no other. It has been the reason that I have strayed away from NLS from the beginning.

Interesting, as I don't believe that I have ever said that there is no other way to feed a fish, other than with NLS. I was also promoting this food, on this very board, long before I had ever considered selling it, so did that fact also contribute to your straying away from this product?

I'm not denouncing the manner in which you keep your fish, yet you seem quite comfortable denoucing mine, as well as many others of this forum. Rather ironic, dont you think?

I have never said that every fish on the planet will eat this food, nor that one can't feed umpteen different foods to their fish if they so desire, what I have said is that IF your fish will eat this food, it will thrive.

I also was not the person who initially mentioned NLS in this thread, you were.

While I am curious as to the results of your feed trials, I certainly don't need your personal endorsement to prove anything to me. I've seen all the proof that I need first hand, with both freshwater, as well as marine. I'm happy just knowing that a premium food of this quality can now be found on LFS shelves across western Canada, mostly due to my efforts. I'm also quite happy to put my money where my mouth is, and apparently the consumers have already spoken. If things go as planned, hopefuly consumers in Sask will soon have the same opportunity as those do in MB, AB & BC.

Slice it any way you like, in my mind, this is a good thing for hobbyists, and most hobbyists (many members of this very forum) will agree.

BTW - Astaxanthin is extracted from the micro algae Haematococcus pluvialis, which is a microscopic green algae that accumulates large amounts of natural astaxanthin under certain growth conditions.

You might find the following info interesting, you might even consider the fact there are probably numerous bodies of water where killies are found, that contain this micro algae.

Haematococcus algae are microscopic green algae, encountered all over the world.

They occur in continental and coastal rock pools, water holes and other similar small bodies of water, where they naturally strive as tiny free swimming flagellated algae smaller than the cross-section of a human hair.

When environmental conditions become adverse, i.e., when nutrients start becoming scarce, or the water pool starts drying out and the algae are increasingly exposed to direct sunlight, they enter a resting phase that allows them to survive for prolonged periods, until the environment becomes much more favorable.

When entering this resting phase, the algae naturally start accumulating high amounts of astaxanthin (3% or more of their dry weight).

It is believed that the astaxanthin plays an important role in protecting the algae against UV light damage and photo-oxidation of the poly-unsaturated lipids which they also accumulate in significant amount during this phase of their life.

[Oxquo]

I have seen the video from Natu-rose I am well aware how the process works, it is not the same value in the green form though. We had this arguement almost two years ago and I am tired of reading other peoples quotes. These quotes mean nothing to me unless I know the person quoting it personally.

Back to killies...... The Question still is....Killi post or not to killi post? As far as killies go, the post could include headers on live food as well since live foods are cultured for killies more than almost every other fish.

[RD.]

What does Naturose have to do with anything? They are simply one company that produces a commercial form of astaxanthin. There are numerous forms of astaxanthin on the market, some natural, and some man made, though Haematococcus pluvialis micro-algae is the richest source of natural astaxanthin. BTW - Haematococcus pluvialis was first described in the mid 1800's, it's not as though the people at Cyanotech discovered it. Seeing as you don't like quotes, I'll send you a direct link that cites the references.

http://www.astafactor.com/techreports/tr3004-001.htm

You stated;

I have never heard of Astaxanthin growing in a killi pond but adding it helps alot with color.

.... and I was simply attempting to point out to you that there are numerous bodies of water world-wide that contain the micro algae that astaxanthin is derived from.

[Oxquo]

Yes there is, Yes there are..... Quote" Yes there is, Yes there are" Unquote

[Nandopsis]

Alright ladies that's enough.

Topic closed.