Crossbreedophilia

[Willfishguy]

A human crossed with a chimp, is this acceptable? Homochimpanacus! Is it ok to breed or allow to breed two different genus together? Is it ok to breed the same genus together, but a different species? I understand dogs are the handy work of such inbreeding, and I certainly do love dogs, but look at the mess they are in. People love their Bulldogs like they love their Parrot Cichlids, but neither one serve a purpose in todays world other then for vanity and profit and both would perish with out the lording over of the human hand; they could never live in the natural world.

I sit, looking over at the Baensch Index Atlas, there are over 4000 different species of freshwater fish in that book and Mergus plans to one day have several more of these Index Alases cataloging all fish. With so many endangered fish around the world, would it not be more important spend energy on perpetuating genes from a natural species fish, then say crisscrossing a neon with a cardinal in hopes to make a prettier tetra?

Look at the Red Tail Black Shark, it has been extinct in the wild for many years now, because of habitat destruction, but we the Aquarium Community keep it alive. The same fate is quickly coming up on the Cherry Barb, Black Ruby Barb and the Asian Arowana.

I understand that ethics is a subjective thing, but is not our objective out of place when we deliberately perpetuate such things?

Edited November 4, 2006 by Willfishguy

[Froggie]

I'm not quite sure of the point of this thread to be honest, however I'll go ahead and state definitively that hybrids ought be culled. I'm not against culling those who create monstrosities such as the blood parrots in the name of profit either.

[midgetwaiter]

Do not...repeat, do not start me on how I feel about intentional hybridising.

Tighten your belt Chris, your hypocrisy is showing and as a zoologist I know you know better. Humanity has been intentionally hybridizing livestock, pets, crops and any number of other things for thousands of years. Show me a "wild" strain of wheat, tomato, dog, cat, guppy, betta, swordtail, molly, cow, horse, etc.

I can respect the goals of the current cichlids enthusiast's group think on the subject, keeping wild strains pure is a fine goal but the rhetoric is appalling. Right in this thread Froggie advocated the "culling" of somebody who breeds Blood Parrots but completely ignores the original post's bulldog example. Would you advocate the "culling" of the person who created the bulldog breed? How about the Egyptian that bred cold resistant wheat 3000 years ago? Do you ever eat something with flour in it?

How about somebody who breeds the swordtails or bettas he gets from the LFS, they're propagating a hybrid after all. Hell I've done it, fancy goldfish too, I guesss I'm on the cull list huh?

Maybe getting that militant about parrot cichlids seems a little silly now?

Edited November 3, 2006 by midgetwaiter

[windeindoiel]

I think hybridizing is a little silly in some cases, like that wrinkle dog that needs to get surgery or something about something, I don't remember now (it's been a long day on little sleep). But in some cases hybridizing is good, like the wheat example, and a whole lot of other food sources that have been hybridized and selectively bred to produce something better. Also natural hybridization does happen in the wild, so maybe it's not necessarily wrong.

With how it relates to fish and endangerment in the wild I have an example that applies to me. I see hybridized stingrays for sale every now and then and that really bothers me. They aren't being commonly bred in captivity yet and they're situation in the wild isn't very good. So until one of those things changes I think it's really important to keep the different species well seperated and not let any hybrids happen. When they are more commonly bred in the hobby and there's no chance of pure bred rays becoming rare, if people want to create hybrids go for it, though I probably will never buy one.

I don't know if this is really coming out very well, I am very tired.

[fatpuffer]

I am pretty sure there are bulldog that are bought not for vanity or profit but for companionship.

[Willfishguy]

I am pretty sure there are bulldog that are bought not for vanity or profit but for companionship.

I pretty sure if you looked into the depths of desire... you wouldn't be so sure anymore.

[Vallisneria]

Arent' all breeds of dog the same species? So wouldnt' they be line bred instead of hybrids? The example of bulldogs can't be compared to cichlid hybrids, were 2 different species are crossed.

So I think we need to clarify line bred vs. cross bred(hybrids).

[Toirtis]

Tighten your belt Chris, your hypocrisy is showing and as a zoologist I know you know better. Humanity has been intentionally hybridizing livestock, pets, crops and any number of other things for thousands of years. Show me a "wild" strain of wheat, tomato, dog, cat, guppy, betta, swordtail, molly, cow, horse, etc.

See me with dogs, guppys, swords, cows, horses, etc? I do have bettas....Betta pugnax (wild strain), Betta imbelis (wild strain), etc...shall I continue? And I grow wild-strain tomatos (yes, small, yellow, and somewhat bitter...damned difficult to get seeds, too). No hypocrisy here, me boyo.

I think hybridizing is a little silly in some cases, like that wrinkle dog that needs to get surgery or something about something,

That would be selective inbreeding within a species, not hybridising, though.

[dunl]

-01- I really hate these threads....

Show me a "wild" strain of wheat, tomato, dog, cat, guppy, betta, swordtail, molly, cow, horse, etc.

Think before you request.......

wild "emmer" wheat, an ancestor of duram wheat...

wild tomato "Lycopersicon esculentum var. cerasiforme"

wild dog "Lyacon pictus"

wild cat - good grief, there's 30 some of these, but for the sake of keeping this aquatic, the Fishing Cat "Prionailurus viverrinus"

wild bettas - covered already by Christian, but hey...

betta pugnax

betta imbelis

wild swordtail

wild molly "P. latinna"

wild cow "banteng"

wild horse "Przewalski horse or Takh"

Is that kind of what you had in mind?

Edited November 4, 2006 by dunl

[skinless]

it doesn't really matter to me that my lfs "midas" is not pure of cintrinellum blood.

[midgetwaiter]

-01- I really hate these threads....

Think before you request.......

Is that kind of what you had in mind?

Too literal, of course I am aware these thing exist.

[dunl]

Too literal, of course I am aware these thing exist.

So what exactly were you looking for with that request then?

[a1foxes]

Oohh I haven't had a debate on this kind of stuff in a LONG time. Ethics is as much

personal as it is scientific, that's why these things get so heated. Just like religion

and politics, people can turn a blind eye to the worst behavior, and even justify it

to some degree, based on their feelings or beliefs about a person etc.

That aside, I grew up in a family of professional, scientific/fact type parents.

Things like faith, spirituality,etc, was left up to me to decide. My grandparents

were farmers, I've been one to some degree most of my life. I've been breeding

animals for 25 years. Most people might point to dogs and horses for examples,

but mammals and the process of evolution is the same for all of them. Nature itself

hybridizes every time a plant cross pollinates. Wolves breed with dogs because

nature decides they are compatible. Since man domesticated animals, breeding

them to enhance certain traits was important to the survival of people as we know

it. The chickens we eat, are all hybridized. Even breeds that may be 'true' for

hundreds of years, trace them back far enough and they are ALL hybridized to

some degree, whether it was intentionally done by man, or the progress of

nature. Hybridizing everything from grain to insects, to mammals and yes

even viruses and bacteria, is the reason we humans are as 'successful' as

we are. We all know this has come at a price. Species continue to be rendered

extinct, often a result of man's progression into their territory. However, its

important to note, that long before man came along, species would go extinct

at alarming rates, a result of climate changes and yes, evolution. Where nature

is concerned, the strong survive, the weak do not. Species that are able to

adapt and change are what survive. I am not opposed to trying to save

species that are dying off. These days, mans encroachment on these

habitats are a large part of the problem, so actuallly, I do support saving

these species. However, I don't think its right to 'guilt' someone into doing

it by laying blame for other mens' deeds. When I got into a rare breed of

rabbit, 20 years ago, people who had been around for a while figured I was

a typical teenager and the novelty would wear off, and the animals would

disappear. One of the reasons the breed is in existence right now, is my

dedication to saving it. My years of work and commitment to these animals

paid off, and I was able to spread the bloodline all over the continent, at a

time where 'purebreds' were hard to come by. Never once did I outcross

intentionally. I have to admit, that accidents did happen and hybrids did

occur, but they were never used for any reproduction purposes. On the

other hand, breeders who's specialty is meat animals, deliberately hybridize

stock to get the best grow-out ratios, meat to bone ratio's, litter size and

reproduction capabilities. This doesnt make these people monsters, they

are trying to earn a living, and these days, farming the old way doesn't

make ends meet anymore. Its practical. Still, like me, there are many

diehards that will not outcross a breed. Most of us will not say that

hybridizing is unethical, because we know better. We do what we do

because of how we feel about it, and we respect the fact that others

do not always feel the same way. There IS some practicality to crossbreeding

sometimes, but even I admit there is a line there for me, yours may be different.

I do not believe in hybrids where looks or esthetics are the primary concern.

That to me is egotistical, self centered and not least of all, vain. Its one thing

to try and breed OUT a bad or undesirable trait, such as temperament, bone

structure problems etc, its another to tamper with 2 very different species,

and throw them together to see what happens. Things like trying to cross

humans and chimps- is ridiculous and for sure impractical, and I honestly

dont know a human that would be willing to partake in something that

twisted on their own. Crossing different breeds of cattle is not wrong. It

happened long before people came into this world. Typically, it was man

that went with the whole 'purebred' thing. Funky crossbreeding has been

going on by itself for a long time. How do you think the species on this

planet got so diverse in the first place? The difference between man and

nature is, that nature is unforgiving. If the offspring are not hardy and

not capable of survival on their own, they die, as do others like them.

Man on the other hand, contributes to the perpetuation of such 'weak'

species because they 'like them' (oh that vanity selfish thing again).

They feed them, care for them, and encourage them to produce more

of the same, thus we have a whole lot of really useless species of 'things'

out there. This is not always that simple- the other side of the coin... in

order for our population to grow and thus feed itself, we have had to come

up with new ways of growing our food. Less than ideal climates, more

variety of product, more overall production, etc are all factors leading

to this. Thats why things like wheat, tomatoes, potatoes, and yes, cattle,

are hybridized. Higher crop production, better flavour, more nutrional

value and the ability to grow things in colder climates, are the result. If

that is a bad thing, well, if all that were wiped out, so would a lot of

people be wiped out. I'm not so sure that is going to save any species

that are already dying out, and I for one am not going to condemn

man for trying to survive.

That all having been said, once again, ethics are fairly individual, what's

right for one isn't for another. What people need most of all, is a healthy

respect for the beliefs of others. Being open to other perspectives is

ALWAYS a good thing.

When I decided to get into breeding zebra plecos, it was due in part,

to the fact that I really do like them alot. It was also due in part, to

their rarity and near extinction in the wild. Yes, I have them because

I like them. I breed them because I want to save them. They arent

disappearing due to 'nature'. They are disappearing due to habitat

destruction by man. If i were doing it for vanity, well, that would make

me shallow and typically in cases like that the novelty wears off and

people give up, then the animals just 'disappear'. I can't say it won't

happen, but I hope there are enough people out there who feel the

same way I do, that won't give up. I just hope to help increase the

odds, even if just a little bit. The thing is, it won't work if you don't

care, and you can't MAKE people care, by guilt, blackmail or by

shaming them into it. Its great to talk about it, hey with any luck,

someone listens and takes it seriously, and decides to help out. There

is no harm in that whatsoever, just be sure the reactions are going

to be positive. If you tick people off by condemning them for their

'beliefs', well, lets just say you catch more flies with honey than

with vinegar right?

[a1foxes]

Sorry for being so long winded, it's just such a complex subject, that in all

honesty, can't be summed up in one sentence. As many of you know, I

keep alot of different fish. I still wouldn't try to cross species, however, I

do breed halfmoon bettas to other halfmoon bettas of different color

varieties. Guppies, well, i don't mess with them, a strain is a strain and

I wont mix it with something else. I know others do, thats their thing not

mine. Lets face it, if a person were to condemn fish that are not wild, from

their tanks, then your variety goes down, but stays pure. If thats what you

desire, go for it! No one here is going to argue with that, thats a personal

choice. Takes some strong beliefs to pull it off, and I'd congratulate it.

kudos really!I'll do what i can, and see where things take me, who knows

what may change?

I've spent SOOO many years batting PETA- yes our worst enemies it

seems. their 'members' still eat meat, they still wear leather and silk

and wool- animal products. Down filled jackets, leather shoes belts

wallets etc. . They have nothing better to do than argue and condemn

people for their beliefs,because we don't buy into their crap. They are

all responsible for acts against some animals and various parts through

their lives, whether they admit it or not.

I don't mean to compare anyone here to them, gosh, NO ,, we need to

be much better than that.

Final note, I'm really NOT trying to insult or cut down someone based on

their opinions, just tryiing to get some of the rest of the info out there.

[Toirtis]

Do not...repeat, do not start me on how I feel about intentional hybridising.