Chinese Algae Eater vs Red Tail Black Shark

[roypark05]

I heard these two don't like each other's company and will provide for interesting tank antics. Anyone ever set this up before?

[Drydock]

I heard these two don't like each other's company and will provide for interesting tank antics. Anyone ever set this up before?

I may be reading into this too much, but your choice of words "Anyone ever set this up before?" Implies that you are looking for someone who has intentionally put two incompatible species together for the purpose of conflict.

IMO, anyone who intentionally puts two incompatible species together for the purpose of observing their conflict should not be a pet owner. I don't think it is ethical. Most (if not all) of the people I have interacted with on this site really do care for the animals in their care and try to provide the best living conditions possible. This is the first post I have read where someone may have suggested doing otherwise.

I'll wait for you to tell me that I totally misread that and clarify what you really meant. There is a really great edit feature you can use to fix up your post.

[roypark05]

Well I really don't know what happens exactly. I bought a book on tropical fish at pets unlimited awhile back and they recommended it in that book. I'm guessing they spar with each other, but I don't think either fish is capable of causing much damage to the other, so it's probably not dangerous for them to be in there together. I believe these fish commonly live in the same areas in the wild.

I enjoy watching different species spar with each other, but I care about the fish in my aquariums and I always ensure they are healthy and happy. IMO sparring is part of what they do and they're overall happier when there's some of that going on (but not too excessive of course). I personally don't see the point of packing too many cichlids in a tank just to curb their aggression. But to each their own.

[Moutain Dew]

I personally don't see the point of packing too many cichlids in a tank just to curb their aggression. But to each their own.

I don't think anyone ever said it curbs it... Just spreads it around.

Edited August 21, 2008 by Moutain Dew

[bottomdweller_fan]

I'm guessing they spar with each other, but I don't think either fish is capable of causing much damage to the other, so it's probably not dangerous for them to be in there together. I believe these fish commonly live in the same areas in the wild.

That may be the case, but in the wild they do not have glass or plastic walls keeping them from leaving each other's territory. It may not seem like they are physically hurting one another, but the stress of being unable to completely retreat from each other's presence may lead to future problems and possible death. IMO that does not seem like ethical fishkeeping. Just my two cents.

[jvision]

Since both fish will get over 5", I'd only recommend keeping them together in a larger tank. If you're setting up for what will one day be adult fish, I'd probably have them in a 90gal or bigger. If it is smaller, then make sure there are an over abundance of hiding places. Chinese algae eaters are known to be fish-killers when they grow up - they suck on to the sides of fish and cause nasty wounds. Sharks do best in groups when young, then seem to become loners when they get older.

[abc123]

That may be the case, but in the wild they do not have glass or plastic walls keeping them from leaving each other's territory. It may not seem like they are physically hurting one another, but the stress of being unable to completely retreat from each other's presence may lead to future problems and possible death. IMO that does not seem like ethical fishkeeping. Just my two cents.

I completely agree with bottomdweller_fan. It just so happens that I was reading an article the other day and I would like to quote from it. The article was titled: "Stress - Its Role in Fish Disease" by Ruth Francis-Floyd at the University of Florida, she writes:

"Stress is a condition in which an animal is unable to maintain a normal physiologic state because of various factors adversely affecting its well-being. Stress is caused by placing a fish in a situation which is beyond its normal level of tolerance. Specific examples of things which can cause stress (stressors) are.....population density-crowding, other species of fish-agression, territoriality, lateral swimming space requirements."

"An animal is able to adapt to stress for a finite period of time. During this period the animal may look and act normal, but is depleting energy reserves because of the extra requirements placed upon it."

"Stress compromises the fish's natural defenses so that it cannot effectively protect itself from invading pathogens."

"Any stress which adversely affects the ability of the fish to protect itself will result in an ongoing disease problem; as soon as the treatment wears off, the pathogen can build up its numbers and attack again."

I'm sorry to make this post so lengthy but proper (ie ethical and humane) care of animals whether they be fish, birds, dogs or whatever is something I believe very strongly in and I'm sure I can say the same for most people who frequently post on this site. Someone who causes stress to an animal because they

enjoy watching different species spar with each other

is worried about their own enjoyment more than the well-bieing of the animals that they brought into their care. That's just my two cents.

For further reference, Ruth Francis-Floyd is a veterinarian in the Department of Large Animal Clinical Science, Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agriculture Sciences, University of Florida Gainsville, 32611

The article is CIR919, one of a series of the Fisheries and Aquatic Sciences Department, Florida Cooperative Extension Service, Institute of Food and Agrucultural Sciences, University of Florida.

[roypark05]

Hmmm...I didn't really expect this...

Like I said, I definitely care about my fish and I have a good track record of keeping them healthy and happy. Having said that, anyone who's ever had a Jaguar, Convict, etc has had aggressive fish that will mix it up with tank mates. Let's not pretend that doesn't happen. It's not hard to tell if one of the fish is unhappy, at which time you have to do something; change the tank around or separating them.

I know stress on the fish is bad on them. Bottom line is their colours will be affected. That's another reason to put a couple aggressive fish together that will occasionally fight each other: their colours will be much much brighter. When one fish is not swimming around much and is losing their colour, then it's time for a change.

I understand everything you guys are saying, but I really have to defend myself here in that a little tank antics is definitely enjoyable to watch, but I take care of my fish.

As for this topic specifically, like I said I have a book that recommends putting them together for some "antics" as they put it. Why would the book recommend this if it's unethical?

[jvision]

I think the point is that you don't put them in a 10 gal tank. Make sure you have lots of space and more than just 2 hiding places. If you're buying them at the typical pet store size, you'll want a 33 at the very minimum, and eventually upgrade them to a 90 or larger.

[Drydock]

I understand everything you guys are saying, but I really have to defend myself here in that a little tank antics is definitely enjoyable to watch, but I take care of my fish.

As for this topic specifically, like I said I have a book that recommends putting them together for some "antics" as they put it. Why would the book recommend this if it's unethical?

I don't know the book you are referring to, but I think it is a rather shallow defense to essentially say 'It's written down, so it must be OK." I am assuming you are an adult and can judge for yourself whether or not an idea presented to you is right or wrong. (ethical or unethical) Literally anything can get published, especially these days, so without the reputation of an author or publisher behind the book, it really means nothing to me.

In short, I think that there is a better way to get that enjoyment out of your fish that you are looking for.

If your intent is to get the best coloration out of your fish, why not research their dietary needs and work at providing the best diet you can for them. Find out what their natural habitat would be like and try to replicate that in your tank. Provide suitable mates for them. With the aggressive fish you mentioned, I admit that the task gets much more difficult, and it probably means that you end up with a tank with 2 or 3 fish in it and you take a lot of trips to the Fish Store and walk out wishing you could have bought some fish you saw that looks really nice. Ethical aquarium keeping limits the impulsiveness that each of us are allowed to exercise, unless it comes to buying more tanks!

When you do have conflict in a tank, I rarely find that both are equally matched and can 'hold their own'. Ultimately, you are going to have one that will end up being the dominant, 'King of the Tank'.

I have many species in my tank, and I admit, at times, there is fin nipping and establishment of territories. You are correct in stating that this is part of their natural behavior. However, I have previously selected inhabitants that should be suitable tank mates and not intentionally selected fish that will not get along.

I have (tried my best to make) a suitable environment for the fish I have selected, I try and feed them well and the result is that there are several groupings that will spawn on a regular basis. The result is that they are interesting to watch and on a regular cycle, I have great color in the specimens that I have.

The people on this forum and the information in the articles have been a great resource for me to add to that experience. This is a place to exchange opinions and knowledge. Perhaps in your case, not knowing (or being known) by the community, you were caught a bit off guard by our responses. I don't think it is anyones intent to say that you can't belong, but you also need to recognize that any community will set their own standards and expectations. I don't think you will get booted for your opinions (check with the moderators) but expect to be challenged as well if you say something that others don't agree with.

So I think that's all I'm gonna say on this thread. I'm not out to pick on 'the new guy' and if we ever meet up at an auction or something, I'm happy to shake your hand and get to know you. Obviously, we have differing opinions when it comes to keeping fish and I was bringing the other side of the issue up. The last thing I want is for you to never come back because you felt I was a jerk. I just happen to see it differently, that's all.

Good luck with your move out to Edmonton. I hope all goes well and that you and all your livestock make the transition well.

[RDFISHGUY]

I've kept them in a 55 gallon and they didn't bother each other. The odd short chase but not any different than you'd see from any other fish in the tank. If you really want something to get excited about go on youtube and watch the piranhas eating live mice.

[Qattarra]

I admit sometimes it's interesting to see the fish do what they do. One example is to watch an eel peeking out waiting for it's prey to go by, see it dart out like lightning, catch/swallow it's prey and go back into it's hiding spot. We had a member share a video of his mantis do the same. I am for feeding them their their prey. I however don't enjoy seeing those videos on youtube of feedings of large, not necessarily natural, prey which needs to be torn limb from limb, trying to get away. Some are left bleeding to death because the fish didn't want the rest of it until later.

This sparing, isn't it the same as watch c*ck fights or dog fights? Their owner's love their animals too they say. Many owners love their animals and do things with them that is enjoyable for the animal. My example here is lure coursing. The dogs get to chase and catch but nothing gets hurt. Try those (can't think of the word) the obstacle courses, the dogs get to showcase their great skills but the are not sparing with each other.

I wouldn't stop you from posting your spars as long as it isn't stupid violence. I would also expect that like me, there are many people on here who just would chose not to watch them. I do welcome you to our forum. I personally would prefer just to see your fish and their set ups, just not the spars. Sue

[roypark05]

Yeah I have some videos of the fish going at each other and some of them just swimming around. Anyway get 3-5 puppies in the same area and see if there's not some fighting going on. Every animal has a natural level of aggression, and animals will get into at least a couple encounters in its lifetime; unless someone enlcoses a fish in an area where it does not come into contact with competitors. If I had fish constantly getting killed or sick I'd wonder if I was doing things wrong.

Sorry I brought the topic up.

I'm going to go on pretending everyone with a jaguar or a green terror cichlid on this forum has it by itself in a 6547890 gallon aquarium where it never chases another fish.

[Sam Chicklets]

I believe the point that people are trying to make here is that they understand that Mother Nature can be a cruel mistress, but to deliberately put 2 fish together that will fight just to get your kicks is not natural. We have a number of threads on this site with different situations and some of it closely represents a natural situation. Others are just cruel.

Here is a situation that is closer to what would happen in nature.

http://albertaaquatica.com/index.php?showt...mp;hl=lightning

While this is not.

http://albertaaquatica.com/index.php?showt...=20298&st=0

So when you make a statement that you want to put fish together to watch them fight, you are going to get a lot of negativity from it.