Rose Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 I have three large Green Terrors, one large sailfin pleco and a dozen syno. petricolas in a 110 gallon tank. They have been relatively healthy in this tank for more than a year. Recently one Green terror started swimming erratically and resting on the bottom. I took it out and had it in a cooler with a small filter. It seemed to improve so I put it back in the Tank. It now struggles to swim, mostly rests on the bottom when it's not chasing the other terrors away. and can't seem to eat properly either. It's appearance is healthy other than the redness I noticed at the base of it's fins and the way it just rests at the bottom. Now the second largest Green terror in the tank is in worse shape. He seems to be swollen, is swimming erratically and resting on the bottom, has body sores (from swimming into rocks?)and deteriorated fins, his scales seem to be peeling and reddish underneath in spots mostly at the base if his tail fins. He has no interest in eating and doesn't even notice when I put food in. I haven't had any other problems other than ick (and PH problems which I still haven"t figured out) so I don't even know where to start. Unfortunately I don't have a Quarantine tank available at the moment and will have to treat the entire tank. The picture attached is of the smaller terror with the sores. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichthyosporidium Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 (edited) What you are describing seems to me that the fish have primary, secondary and possibly even tertiary infections, all bacterial. First is the redness at the base of the fins. What you are describing seems to be hemorrahgic septicemia, which is bacterial. The second one with the open sores would most likely be furunculosis and the description of peeling scales would indicate dropsy which would also explain the loss of appetite and the laboured / erratic swimming. Possibly, there is potential for swim bladder infection with the laboured / erratic swimming. I don't like to be pessimistic, but the stages of infection(s) that you have described don't leave much chance for recovery. You need a good antibiotic. I've always had good success with Mardel's Marycyn II. Expensive but the best shot you have right now. Follow Manufacturer's instructions and like all antibiotics, a full dosage period should be adhered to lest you create super pathogenic bacilli.... ...In other words completely use the amount and dosages that is prescribed by the manufacturer, regardless of brand and antibiotic type. Best of luck to you and sorry to have this happen to you. Edited December 26, 2009 by Ichthyosporidium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvision Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 If you can set up an hospital tank, you won't need as much medication. 33s and 54s are easy to come by. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dipset Posted December 26, 2009 Report Share Posted December 26, 2009 What is your PH at right now? are you municipal tap water? A ph problem could indicate a problem with ammonia toxicity, which could lead to unnecessary pathogens in your tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose Posted December 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 What is your PH at right now? are you municipal tap water? A ph problem could indicate a problem with ammonia toxicity, which could lead to unnecessary pathogens in your tank. [/quMy PH comes out of the tap at7.6 and in the tank it's closer to 8.2. I know thats pretty high but I am a little leery about changing the PH. I've heard that it can be difficult. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose Posted December 27, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 What you are describing seems to me that the fish have primary, secondary and possibly even tertiary infections, all bacterial. First is the redness at the base of the fins. What you are describing seems to be hemorrahgic septicemia, which is bacterial. The second one with the open sores would most likely be furunculosis and the description of peeling scales would indicate dropsy which would also explain the loss of appetite and the laboured / erratic swimming. Possibly, there is potential for swim bladder infection with the laboured / erratic swimming. I don't like to be pessimistic, but the stages of infection(s) that you have described don't leave much chance for recovery. You need a good antibiotic. I've always had good success with Mardel's Marycyn II. Expensive but the best shot you have right now. Follow Manufacturer's instructions and like all antibiotics, a full dosage period should be adhered to lest you create super pathogenic bacilli.... ...In other words completely use the amount and dosages that is prescribed by the manufacturer, regardless of brand and antibiotic type. Best of luck to you and sorry to have this happen to you. Thank you. I tried using pimafix last night, thinking that it was fungal. I lost one fish today (the worse of the two sick ones) I can't get a hold of any Mardell's today as everything is closed already but will try that just after work tomorrow. should I change water before? I'm kind of worried about mixing the Mardel's with the pimafix (probably Bad ?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichthyosporidium Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 (edited) If you haven't done a water change recently 20% is not a bad idea. Try and concentrate on any accumulated detrius on the surface of the gravel in 'dead spots' that can be found in many large tanks. These are areas that have no circulation and tend to collect organic material. Two reasons to do this before treatment is ofcourse they can be potential sources for pathogenic bacteria and fungi to develop. Secondly, you will be removing any carbon out of any filtration as it will remove your medication. If you haven't changed your carbon in a while it is not a bad idea to replace with fresh carbon when the treatment is completed. Most Mardel products do not have reactions with other meds but do make sure you read all info inthe pamphlet provided. I don't have any on hand right now so I just want you to be sure. Adding a bacterial culture is not a bad idea. Even though erythromycin is mostly effective against gram-negative bacteria, there is some effect against gram-positive bacteria so as easy as the erythromycin is on the aquariums biology it still is good to add a bacterial culture additive. For me it is just insurance but not neccessary. Edited December 27, 2009 by Ichthyosporidium Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ishkabod Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 I agree. Allthough mixing meds in my fairly inexpeerienced opinion unless you really know what you are doing is a no no but you could e-mail the manufacturer and see what they say. I'm thinking that maybe the source of the problem is PH swings/ high PH which caused stresss/ammonia problems. I don't see how your tap water at 7.6 and tank water at 8+ is possible without doseing with something but then again i'm no expert(if you figure it out let me know the secret as i have africans). One thing i know for sure is that PH swings can kill fish so a really large water (50%+) change is not a good idea unless you use something to get the PH of the water close to what it was before if but a little lower. If you do use meds then I highly suggest that you monitor your Nitrates and Ammonia levils durring and after treatment. Source of high ph.... Marble,Limestone or other rockwork............... Maybe double check what you have in there. If not rockwork it could be the substrate as there are some specific ones that are labeled for Cichlids but more specificly for African cichlids for which the PH differences are immence. Add some tannin releaseing driftwood maybe. Good luck L P.S. If you are useing test strips then your second purchace after meds is a LIQUID HIGH range PH test kit and a seachem ammonia alert. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dipset Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 Its evidently not a Ph problem. When ammonia reaches maximum potential the Ph would drop. I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but when fish become lethargic and fish stop eating, you'll usually lose the fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timbruun Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 @ Ishkabod The pH change is simply from the water sitting. CO2 gases out of the water and the pH gets more basic. My water comes out of my tap at 7.5 or so and after 48 hours in a glass/pail it's at 8.5 or so. You can speed the process up by circulating or but an air stone in the water. I've done tons of reading on it since I've had that problem since I started. I still do about 50% water changes sometimes and the fish don't seem to mind too much. The only ones that seem to not really like it are my Piranhas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichthyosporidium Posted December 27, 2009 Report Share Posted December 27, 2009 If anyone wants to discuss the finites of ammonia's effect to the power of hydrogen in the municipal water supply, feel free to start a new thread on that. I understand that it has relevance in the form of preventative maintenance but has no real bearing on this thread as her fish are already in the latter stages of multiple infections. In other words, your not helping by adding more information than the person needs to know right now. Now Rose, do you have an update on your situation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moutain Dew Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 What Kind of filtration do you have in this tank? tank water circulation..? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose Posted December 28, 2009 Author Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 If anyone wants to discuss the finites of ammonia's effect to the power of hydrogen in the municipal water supply, feel free to start a new thread on that. I understand that it has relevance in the form of preventative maintenance but has no real bearing on this thread as her fish are already in the latter stages of multiple infections. In other words, your not helping by adding more information than the person needs to know right now. Now Rose, do you have an update on your situation? Yes, I lost one fish lastnight but two are still alive. I went to the closest pet store but they told me I couldn't get ahold of Marycyn II, apparently there are some problems getting fish Medications and antibiotics across the border? He reccomended waht he said is the next closest thing (that they have) Fungus Clear tank Buddies. They come in tablet form. I have removed Both Terrors and each have their own 4 Gallon Bucket with an air stone and small heater. I plan on leaving them in the bucket while treating them. I am also considering stripping the tank and starting over. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvision Posted December 28, 2009 Report Share Posted December 28, 2009 If they haven't eaten in a few days, they should be OK in the buckets; but, you'll definitely need to do WCs to keep them from expiring in a pail of their own waste. If you're going to start over again, you'll need to recycle the tank; otherwise you're just going to have the same problem in a week or so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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