pat Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Do you happen to have a water softener? If so, I'll tell you why I ask. Do tell. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wandj Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Living on an acreage with a well, my water is hard/alkaline. Ya, very common. I wanted Discus, Amazon plecos, etc. Soft water/acid species. I used regular NaCl salt in a water softener, and must admit, I never had any problems. I switched to KCl and had a massive die-off of a lot of my fish. I have one survivor that still swims around with a "red" fin. The manufacturer added "cleaning agents" to this salt, hence the major die-off. (It happened after I added the salt to the brine tank and did a water change) I learned a lot about softeners since then and now I keep my Discus, fancy plecos, etc in my raw well water and....NO DEATHS. KCl salt (the type for brine tanks) contains chemicals that will kill your fish. And no, none of this info was on the bag. I had to email the company and they admitted the salt was not safe for fish. NaCl salt. Well, all it does is exchange a sodium ion for Calcium or Magnesium. Does nothing to the buffering (CaC03) capacity and all it does is subject your fish to sodium. And Calcium and Magnesium are healthier for your fish than an overdoes of Sodium. They are better off in raw well water from what I've experienced and read. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ronrca Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 Living on an acreage with a well, my water is hard/alkaline. Ya, very common.I wanted Discus, Amazon plecos, etc. Soft water/acid species. I used regular NaCl salt in a water softener, and must admit, I never had any problems. I switched to KCl and had a massive die-off of a lot of my fish. I have one survivor that still swims around with a "red" fin. The manufacturer added "cleaning agents" to this salt, hence the major die-off. (It happened after I added the salt to the brine tank and did a water change) I learned a lot about softeners since then and now I keep my Discus, fancy plecos, etc in my raw well water and....NO DEATHS. KCl salt (the type for brine tanks) contains chemicals that will kill your fish. And no, none of this info was on the bag. I had to email the company and they admitted the salt was not safe for fish. NaCl salt. Well, all it does is exchange a sodium ion for Calcium or Magnesium. Does nothing to the buffering (CaC03) capacity and all it does is subject your fish to sodium. And Calcium and Magnesium are healthier for your fish than an overdoes of Sodium. They are better off in raw well water from what I've experienced and read. Wow! Do you have some references? I know of some discus breeders that are using softeners and telling the rest of the world to use them. I like some info on them if you have. Thanks Ron Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wandj Posted November 23, 2005 Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 References? Good God. All my references regarding Discus have been mostly from the Jack Wattley articles in TFM. There are far too many Q and A pieces in his section and I have Val's huge stack of mags plus my own stack to take the time to find all this for you. Sorry, but I guess you'll have to research this stuff on your own. And I read ALL of the mags I got from Val. Thank you Val. The most valuable info is the Jack Wattley sections like I said. Just points I remember: He said young Discus grow best in hard/alkaline, but will not breed or have very fruitful spawns in hard/alk. He has doubts that Discus can survive in parameters like mine, but other readers had written him that their Discus are a-ok in water like mine as well. Wild are fussier of course. He did comment on water softeners. What I said about the ion exchange is what I mentioned in my previous post. Most foreign (asian) Discus breeders don't even use filters. They do 100% or MORE water changes DAILY. He uses just sponge filters and 20 gal breeding tanks. I am positive Jack does not condone water softeners. He does encourage diluting hard/alkaline water with R/O if possible to give them more natural water parameters. Because I keep Discus, I treasure the Jack Wattley section in TFM. There is also other sources in Aquarium Fish USA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neely Posted November 23, 2005 Author Report Share Posted November 23, 2005 another death this morning. i do water changes every week and vacuum at that time as well. nothing ever out of the norm- pretty routine. i dont use a water softener- just calgary tap water. dunno if anything has changed with my water at all. its seems to be sticking to my 2 male ideberg sc fryeri and my met estherae, the yellow labs, demansoni and red empress are all fine- the red empress are even spawing during all this. guess the male has a fetish with death or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RDFISHGUY Posted November 26, 2005 Report Share Posted November 26, 2005 I had a similar problem the past couple of days . Nitrates got a little high did a water change lost a couple of fish . Went to the cupboard and got out the kosher salt and followed the guidlines on cichlid forum for salt teatment . 1 tsp / gal every 12 hrs for 36 hrs ie : 3 treatments ( and another box of salt). They also give instructions for a salt dip. So far no new deaths and this is the second time it worked for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neely Posted December 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 update: the Great die-off of 2005 continues, i have 1 demansoni left and all my met. Estherae are dead. they are still dying and that brings my grand total to 11 fish dead in the last couple weeks. the red empress are happy and the sc fryeri are spawning like crazy and the labs are now spawning too. what the hell?!?!?!?!?!?! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallisneria Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 HOw long did you have the fish that died? Were they in teh tank for months or were they newly acquired? Your parameters are still testing good? So only this group of 11 fish were affected? the other fish in the tank are fine? Are they still dying quickly with no visable symptoms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pop Eye Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 I had high nitrate a couple days ago as well after a water change!!! Now its back to normal.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jods2518 Posted December 3, 2005 Report Share Posted December 3, 2005 (edited) Hey Neely, I'm so sorry to hear this is happening to you and all your wonderful fish. Whats really hard is that you don't know whats happening to them, Did u recently buy any new chemicals (water conditioners, etc?) I can't figure out what could be going wrong...... Jods Edited December 3, 2005 by Jods2518 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neely Posted December 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 all these fish had been in there for a while, some over a year. there are no physical symptoms before death, only heavy breathing - some only hours before i find them dead. all the other fish seem happy and normal. Yes jods- this is very depressing. i feel helpless watching them and feel like maybe i should sell everything before i get labeled a fish murderer. I see tanks that get neglected to the point they dont see a vacuum or w/c for upwards of a year and the fish all survive, and i maintain my almost religiously! The only new thing that i have added to my tank is a bottle of aqua plus water conditioner. same stuff i always have used. water parameters are all testing normal. i really should go get a test kit for ph and stuff. i only test for ammonia, nitrite and nitrates. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vallisneria Posted December 4, 2005 Report Share Posted December 4, 2005 I'm really sorry I have no idea what could kill off only certain fish and leave the others. But dont' blame yourself. You aren't a fish murderer. Everyone has killed fish in this hobby. You are trying your best to figure out whats wrong. Its not like you are doing this on purpose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishy Posted December 6, 2005 Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 (edited) I had something similar like this happen to me a few months ago. Noticed 1 of my mbuna dead in my 55g. Tested the water right away and noticed the nitrates were high. I then did a 50% water change right away. Next day another fish was found dead and 2 more were heavy breathing and not looking good. Took the remaining fish out of the 55g and put them into a quarantine tank and did a 90% water change on the 55g. Took all the media out (sponges) from both AC's and replaced them with sponges from other established tanks that I have running. I did 20-50% water changes on the quarantine tank every 2 days. Let the 55g run for 2 days with new media, tested water and had very low nitrates, ammonia good, nitrites good, ph was fine, temp was fine and then added a few hardy tiger barbs to the tank to see how they would do. Tiger barbs were in the tank for a month, no deaths, eating well and water tests were good. The mbunas were kept in quarantine for a month, lost 1 more early on but then no more deaths after that. (3 deaths in total) I also added more salt then normal to the quarantine tank. I added no chemicals as I was unsure what was killing them so just kept with water changes and salt and sparse feedings. Took the barbs out after a month and put them back into their previous tank and added the mbunas from quarantine back to their home. It has been over 2 months, and no more deaths from this tank. Not sure if what I did helped, but never did find out what was killing these fish. I figured big water changes, quarantine, salt, and a prayer would be my best bet when not knowing the problem. My fish also had the heavy breathing as yours did. They were not overfeed as I watch this very carefully, sometimes even skipping days. These were the only deaths I have had all year, (other than my Male Rubescen killing my Gold Nugget pleco when he was trying to breed and got very aggressive) :grr: , I do weekly water changes and bi-weekly filter cleanings on all my tanks. I hope you don't have any more deaths, maybe quarantine the rest might help. Edited December 6, 2005 by Fishy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neely Posted December 6, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 6, 2005 that does sound like something i would benefit from. question is, where do you QT 20+ mbun and haps where they wont freak? i dont have any other tanks for these fish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOSStile Posted December 7, 2005 Report Share Posted December 7, 2005 Neil I have a couple of 20s and 30s that I am breaking down if you would like to borrow one let me know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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