Cheese Posted August 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 My first post on page 1 covered that. With certain species there is always a risk of fry mortality due to the fry not eating within the first week or two, and this is why many breeders use foods such as BBS, microworms, etc for certain species. The main goal is to get them to eat. That is why I'm wondering about going totally to a dry food... This is the first time I've fed the brine shrimp...and it's also the first time my angel babies have made it past a day and a half of free swimming. I've had baby fry before, but never ones as touchy as angels. I'm trying to be a good fish mommy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melody Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Nobody who is putting this much thought, time and effort into the care of her fish, could be anything but a good fish Mommy . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Posted August 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Nobody who is putting this much thought, time and effort into the care of her fish, could be anything but a good fish Mommy . I'm trying...and learning as I go. I will say that the look on my husband's face is priceless when I bring home lettuce or zuccini (spelling?) and tell him it's for the fish! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melody Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 ROFL Well I don't have to worry about that - the other occupant of my home is 12 and he's more than happy to donate his vegies to the creatures. Such a giving child . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jvision Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 I used to do the BBS, microworm thing w. my fry. I've raised everything from anabantids, to livebearers, to dwarf cichlids, and a few other odds and ends. They've always taken prepared foods, but with the nutritional value(less) that they were, I ALWAYS supplimented w. live foods. Because all of my fry over the last 15 years or so have taken prepared foods, I had no qualms about feeding NLS to them this past year. Some younguns can pretty much take Grow right away (mbuna, livebearers), some need it crushed (smaller cichlids, baby plecos). I have to agree with RD. Prepared foods are the way to go, these days. Live foods are more just a treat. I used whiteworms to fatten up my cories and SA cichlids, but feed them mainly w. NLS. African cichlids get NLS - Tangs may get some daphnia as a treat, but that's it. This is what I've found, IME, to be best for my fishies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melody Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Its interesting to hear about the various methods. I didn't start using live foods until I started breeding the 'eggers'. I fussed most over the Rainbows and Red Cardinal Tetras - one or the other started me into live foods. I rely heavily on frozen BBS too - pure laziness there...lol. I suppose you could say that I fence-sit - I see good points in all of the frequently used methods so I use them all to one degree or another. I believe that variety is important, which is no different than using prepared foods actually, since the plus is supposed to be in the balance. Other than the 'multi-vitamin' aspect, I also feel that omnivores and herbivores are somewhat neglected by a diet of only live foods. I think that the focus is too heavily on growth rate, which doesn't necessarily mean that they are enjoying a complete diet. For example, I read a study on Turtles - if you speed their growth rate with a high protein diet, they can have all sorts of issues and deformaties. If vegetable content (or anything else) is a part of their diet from day one in the wild, so it should also be in captivity, in my opinion. Supplements wouldn't be necessary then. Providing fresh vegetation to newborn fry isn't easy though, so processed foods are an option I choose for that. My thoughts are that you can't beat fresh if you can use fresh to provide everything that they need, including vegetation if that's part of their natural diet. Its the same thought process as is applied to human nutrition. Eating dry, processed foods may supply what we need according to what we know about vitamins and how the body uses them (any nutrionist will tell you that there's still much to learn there). However, fresh is always recommended as being better for us, if for no other reason than we DON'T know it all yet, and there may be some obscure component in fresh food that we need. Of course, there's always the point that fish do just fine on fresh stuff in the wild . That is relative though - I have never seen garlic grown in the wild but captive immunity and parasite issues have made it a good addition to the captive creature's diet. So I really don't argue methods, I just adapt and combine a few of them along with my own twist or two. I guess that's because I'm so open to other ways of doing things. After all, if you weren't open to trying something new, NLS would never have entered your tanks. We have to keep an open mind about fish-keeping or we'll never advance the hobby. The way I see it anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 The problem with using fresh or live is this, at best it's hit & miss, at worst your fish could end up seriously lacking in one of the key nutrients that we now know all fish require. Take vitamin C for example, I've asked this question numerous times to hobbyists that promote this manner of feeding their fish, and that is what the vitamin C content is of their daily food when using live/fresh? I've asked for a breakdown per pound, kg, whatever? Not a single person could provide the answer. They had no idea, and that's just one single vitamin that is essential in every fishes diet (with exception to 2-3 species known to mankind) Will most fish still live & breed on a diet that's low in vitamin C, for the most part yes, but if/when that same fish comes under any amount of environmental or physiological stress, that lack of vitamin C might be the single key to why that fishes immune system takes a serious plunge, and the fish becomes seriously ill, or dies. So now factor in the amino acid content of the food, the fatty acid profile, carbohydrates, etc-etc-etc, and the reality is that most people that feed live/fresh food as a staple don't have the slightest clue what the heck they are feeding their fish, beyond the fact that it seems more natural to them. I have yet to find a single hobbyist that mimics the natural diet of the species they keep, exactly as it would be in the wild. Most don't even come close, yet somehow they feel that their home made recipe is more natural for their fish. You simply cannot replicate what takes place in a river, lake, or ocean, in a glass cage. A herbivore in the wild will graze for 12 hours per day, ingesting numerous micro-organisms, insect nymphs, larvae, crustaceans, snails, mites, zoo plankton, etc, along the way, yet some hobbyists will feed a main staple of spirulina, or sheets of nori, and feel they are providing their herbivores with the same type of nutrition as they would consume in the wild. Not likely. Commercial foods have come along ways in the past 10 years, and although supplementing a fishes diet with live or fresh can add a bit of variety if one feels the need, using a high quality commercial food will come much closer to guaranteeing that everything your fish requires for optimum growth, and health, will be available each & every day. While there are still many unknowns in the subject of ornamental fish nutrition, especially if one takes into account the thousands of various ornamental species that hobbyists keep & breed in captivity, when it comes to overall nutrition, in my opinion the best approach is to use a high quality commercial feed that satisfies the crude requirements of all species. If that same food satisfies certain requirements in some species, more than others, I consider it a bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichthyosporidium Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Ahh the debate goes on... There cons to both sides of this issue. On the natural side of things, You might miss a key organisim(s) that contain a key nutrient, introductionof disease, etc. The commercial side of thing may seem to have more pros than cons. However, in the terms of nutrition, there is a bit of a misnomer when it comes to nutrients that many, including the manufacturer themselves miss. I am aware of the millions of dollars spent in research and development od commercial fish foods and yes, they have come a long way. I use them for the sheer convienience they provide as it is alot easier to find a person to fish-sit when there is no live foods involved. But there is one concern on commercial foods. The vitamins and minerals that are put into the formulas, while the quantities might be right, the quality of these nutrients might not be right. You see, in recent times, it has been known that all nutrients are not created equal. What I mean by this is that labratory created nutrients might be in a form that is not useable to the recipient. Vitamins are one of the biggest problems in commercial foods for all animals, from insects to humans might contain enough vitamins that are required but will do no good because they cannot metabolize the form it is in. the other problem is that the majority of vitamins and protiens will oxidize and decompose when exposed to the atmosphere. So, when choosing a commercial brand, make sure the ingredients are from all natural sources. And buy in a way that does not require a long shelf life and store your commercials in an airtight container. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Posted August 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 Commercial foods have come along ways in the past 10 years, and although supplementing a fishes diet with live or fresh can add a bit of variety if one feels the need, using a high quality commercial food will come much closer to guaranteeing that everything your fish requires for optimum growth, and health, will be available each & every day. I agree with vitamins & other nutrients being added to the prepared food being more beneficial...making sure they get all the things they need out of a food...but I do enjoy giving my fish their 'treats' as well and believe that they can be beneficial too. I had a goldfish that was prone to swim bladder problems, no matter how good the food was or how good the water conditions were...but it was amazing how quickly he would be swimming properly after eating raw peas! I'm not planning on feeding JUST bbs to my fry...but I am concerned about other aspects they might be missing by ONLY having the prepared foods. I've read so many times about the bbs helping to instill the hunting instinct in the angel babies, etc, etc... Plus...this is the first time my fry have lived this long...five days free-swimming now, which is four days longer than any other batch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 (edited) Ich, while what you say is for the most part correct, keep in mind that I wasn't referring to all commercially prepared foods. I know exactly what's used, and for the most part in what quantities, in the commercial food that I use. The long term results speak for themselves. Cheese - chances are the diet that you had your goldfish on was too high in carbs. Very hard to digest, and can cause gastrointestinal issues in many species, especially fish with scrunched up GI tracts such as goldfish. No worries, feed your fish what you see fit. I'm not in any way attempting to tell anyone what to feed their fish. Edited August 12, 2006 by RD. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichthyosporidium Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 That is why I'll give your line a serious try. I'll be geeting ahold of you next week. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Posted August 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 There cons to both sides of this issue. On the natural side of things, You might miss a key organisim(s) that contain a key nutrient, introductionof disease, etc. Exactly! I think of it like new information in the last couple decades or so on breastfeeding your children. When my mother had me, is was practically unheard of to do that since formula came with all the nutrients babies were thought to need. With more research, it was found that those first few days after birth are sooooo important because of stuff that couldn't be duplicated in a lab. What's wrong with having the best of both worlds? Feeding the live AND prepared? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ichthyosporidium Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 There is an old saying that comes to mind here Cheese, "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." If YOU are satisfied with the results you are getting, then don't change. It is as simple as that. One suggestion is to keep a detailed journal. Most serious hobbyists do. When there is a problem, you can refer to your jornal to see what you have done right and wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RD. Posted August 12, 2006 Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 What's wrong with having the best of both worlds? Feeding the live AND prepared? Absolutely nothing. For myself I found that live/fresh/frozen foods were no longer necessary, so I discontinued using them a few years back. A decision that I have yet to regret. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheese Posted August 12, 2006 Author Report Share Posted August 12, 2006 I've always used prepared fry foods before for my livebearer or Jellybean Cichlid fry, and they've always done very well...my last Jellybean batch I let them have was close to 100 that survived...but with feeding only the prepared to my angels, they never lasted much more than a day. Could it have something to do with the way the parents themselves were raised? I'm also enjoying watching how well my pair is doing with the fry themselves...I just wish they would let me get close enough to the tank to take a picture. I'm worried my male is going to knock himself unconscious by cranking himself off the glass when he sees anyone too close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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