Flowerhorns and Botox

[Bluecan]

I wanted to comment on that post as well, but didnt have the energy to do so, so thank you for clarifying all that , very well said.

p.s the first fish in that set of pics is outstanding

[RD.]

Glad to help. Even a purist like myself has been known to keep filthy hybrids from time to time.

[Evolution]

There are two types of koks, hard koks, which are comprised of tissue & fat, and water koks, which are mostly made up of fluid, and appear slightly transparent. The kok shown below would be a hard kok.

How is it possible for part of a fishes anatomy be made up of two very different substances from one fish to another of the same var.?

I'm seeing 5-6 inch flower horns with large humps and this isn't normal for true species. Generally the males are much larger before they develop such exagerations.

[RD.]

Different strains, different types of nuchal humps. Also, these aren't "true species", they are hybrids, and are bred for certain traits, one being large nuchal humps. It's actually very common to see large nuchal humps on 5-6" male FH. The cream of the crop will begin forming koks by 2".

[Evolution]

Different strains, different types of nuchal humps. Also, these aren't "true species", they are hybrids, and are bred for certain traits, one being large nuchal humps. It's actually very common to see large nuchal humps on 5-6" male FH. The cream of the crop will begin forming koks by 2".

I know the flower horn is a hybrid, but are not all humps in true species made of the same substance? It just doesn't make sence that one hump is flesh and another is fluid. I'm sure you understand my confusion. Also, no central american cichlid develops such humps at such an early age.

Both these things lead me to believe it's possible that there is an injection done on the fish.

[RD.]

Actually it makes perfect sense, and yes, some species of cichlids have nuchal humps that will inflate and become larger during periods of aggression, breeding, etc, and deflate during periods of stress.

The nuchal hump on the S. casuarius in the link below would be considered a water kok by FH breeders.

http://www.thomas-pritzkow.de/Fachbeitrag/casuarius.html

You certainly don't see nuchal humps on S. casuarius like that every day, and if one knew what they were doing, and wanted to fix a trait such as large nuchal humps on a strain of fish, it would be no different than fixing any other type of physical trait via line breeding for several years & many generations.

[Evolution]

I mentioned that species earlier in this thread and wonder if it plays a roll in the development of the FH. Crossing African cichlids with Central American for kok deveopment. Developing a CA body structure with a west African kok. I wonder if they'd have to splice DNA to pull such a thing off.

[RD.]

No, S. casuarius were never used in FH breeding, at least not that I have ever heard or read. BTW - you need to understand a couple of things ...

1. Out of a spawn of 100+ FH, only a handful might produce early kok development.

Some will never develop a kok, and some may only develop small koks, even when fully mature. Such is the way when you are breeding hybrids in mass numbers, and physical characteristics have not been permanently fixed. Hence the reason why those that do develop substantial koks at an early age command higher prices. Simple supply & demand at play.

2. Many breeders in SE Asia sell juvenile FH where little or no kok has formed, it's a crap shoot for the buyer, but the prices are far more reasonable, and many of these fish later grow massive nuchal humps, with no need for injections of botox, hormones, or anything else. I'm currently growing out a Thai Silk FH, shipped from Bangkok as a small skinny unsexed 1" fry, and now at 3" it is already showing a small, but well formed nuchal hump.

It all boils down to genetics, some got it, some don't, and some never will.

[Evolution]

That makes sense, thanks.

Edited August 16, 2010 by Evolution

[RD.]

Here's an example of what I just described.

http://www.flowerhornsfrombeyond.com/store.html?page=shop.product_details&flypage=flypage_images.tpl&product_id=219&category_id=1

If you click on the photo of the red dragon fry, you can clearly see that none of those 1.5" fish are showing any type of kok. If one was to buy them all, probably only a few of them (if any?) will grow out looking like champs. And this is exactly why this transhipper is only selling them for $5. These are probably some of her own fry, produced by her own breeding pairs. If she was to grow them all out herself, and if by 3-4" any looked like they had great potential, the cost would rise based on the potential quality of the fish.

FH are graded on a number of factors, not just kok potential. Color, pearling, tail shape & form, overall body shape & length, as well as kok. So buying a small juvie is really a crap shoot, even if you know what to look for, hence the much lower price.

HTH

[Evolution]

My reasoning for this post was to discover if any kind of injection is administered to increase the size of the "kok". The fish that origionally sparked this question was in a dealers tank. This fish is about 6-7 inches, which I know is not even half grown. The kok on this fish is bigger that anything I've seen on any adult Central America cichlid two to three times it's size.

[RD.]

I thought that we cleared this up already, no?

Large koks are not a specific trait that the vast majority of people breeding

CA, SA, or African cichlids strive for. With FH's, large koks are one of the #1 traits that all FH breeders strive for, to the point that even females can be found with impressive koks. So if you line breed hard enough, and for long enough, once in a while you will end up with a m/f pair that throw a decent percentage of offspring with massive koks.

And due to their scarcity these fish typically sell for big bucks.

The little juvie Thai Silk that I am currently growing out already has 2-3 times the size of nuchal hump that one would ever see on any CA/SA species of fish at this size. Again, this fish has been in my care (sans injections) since it was a skinny little fingerling.

A Kamfa FH juvie that I have (from the same breeder in Thailand), which is several times larger in total body mass, has a smaller less defined kok than the little Thai Silk. It may come in time as Kamfa are known to be late bloomers, or it may never have much as far as kok goes. I bought the Kamfa for his pearling & color, so whether he grows a massive kok or not I really don't care. If this fish was sitting in a tank at a LFS in Calgary, it would already be in the $400-500 range.

Another rumour about FH's is that Asian breeders inject the male FH with something that causes them to become infertile. Lots of hobbyists still believe this, even though the "story" is totally bogus. Yes, many males are infertile due to their genetic make up, while many others are more than capable of fertilizing eggs. There are plenty of FH's out there that have been locally bred & raised, with nuchal humps the size of small baseballs.

The same goes for other popular hybrids, such as red texas. Some males can produce, some just shoot blanks.

HTH

[Evolution]

Thank you, this has been a very informative thread thanks to you.

Ok, one last time...

ALL koks are developed through breeding and none are developed by injections of any kind.

Some FH koks are a development of a hard tissue and some are just fluid, and even though these are two completely different forms of matter for the same anatomical part of the body in the same "variety" of fish, this is only do to breeding and has no other explaination. It never has anything to do with injections by unscrupulous, greedy producers in countries that pump out millions of tattooed, dyed and geneticly crossed fish that can only be created in a test tube.

I will take your word for this, but I think that it is suspicious and boardering on BS in some cases. Not saying you are BSing, I believe you believe what you think and have been told.

[RD.]

Will, I think that you forget that FH aren't just raised & bred in Asia.

I believe what common sense dictates, and more importantly what I have seen with my own two eyes, and touched with my own two hands. I'm well ware of what can & does take place by breeders in Asia. (and elsewhere)

BTW - I never said that some koks are just fluid, what I said was some are mostly made up of fluid. I've never sliced one open, so I honestly couldn't tell you exactly how much of a water kok is actually comprised of fluid. The comment below is pretty much spot on, and perhaps explains things better.

These are general statements but Water koks are typically larger and when you touch the head, it actually feels like a water balloon. The Water Koks are usually transluscent when the fish is close to a light source and you can almost see thru the kok. The hard koks are just how they sound and actually feel much firmer to the touch. Most FHs that don't have much of a head are hard koks. A problem arises in differentiating between the two types of head because many FHs are somewhere in-between, I call these Semi-waterkoks. It is also extremely difficult to tell the difference between these categories of koks because the heads on these beautiful FHs fluctuate drastically depending on a variety of factors including but not limited to water conditions, water temp, food, mood of the fish, presence or absence of a rival male/female, photoperiod, ect..... A super waterkokster in a bad mood can completely deflate its head and feel hard to the touch. Hard koked fish can also grow large koks, and I tend to feel that they are slightly more stable than waterkoksters. Semi-waterkoks can possibly be fish in a transitional state, especially if the fish is just reaching sexual maturity, it can stay a semi-waterkok or it can bloom into a full blown water kokster

If you go back to the link of the S. casuarius, that is a prime example of how some fish can obtain much larger nuchal humps, than numerous other male fish within the same species. That particular male fish is what most FH keepers would consider a "water kokster". If one took a male such as shown on that website, and was lucky enough to find a female with a somewhat enlarged nuchal hump, and used those two fish to line breed numerous generations, over several years, one could easily develop a "king kong" Buffalo Hump Head strain. Obviously the money isn't there for such an effort, or it would have already been done. With FH fish, the money is there, with "masterpiece" examples commonly fetching 1K or more per fish. So yes, with FH the effort is indeed worth it, even if it takes a hundred or so fish to find that single gem in the making.

You also have to understand that FH can vary greatly, as various fish are used in the genetic make up in the various different strains. A strain that uses King Kong Parrot, or Red Mommon, can vary greatly from one that is based on old school ZZ. (Zhen Zhou)

If you follow the evolution of the FH, it becomes rather clear that a lot of selective breeding has taken place over the past decade. Most of the old school FH's had fairly small (hard) koks, today most of the breeders strive for very large koks as this is what there is a strong demand for.

Just using common logic, if what your "source" stated was true, every breeder across Asia would be using such a method (injections) to get massive koks in all of their FH, and that simply isn't the case. There are a ton of low grade/low cost FH's on the market, that sell for $10-20. Today the market demand is for short mouths, strong wrap tails, strong color and/or pearling, and last but not least large koks.

Quite frankly if one is going to be overly concerned about anything unscrupulous regarding cichlid fish from Asia, it should be the use of hormones to enhance color in a fish. This is a common practice and something that is done very openly among many breeders in Asia.

But even that wears off over time, so it's not like anyone is being fooled, at least not for very long.

Edited August 17, 2010 by RD.

[Evolution]

Thanks for taking all the time Neil to help me understand. I'm pretty sure what you're saying is sound and I am walking away from this post with a much better understanding. Thanks again.